League Survival

kzt wrote:Umm, where does it say there are only a dozen systems with more than a squadron of SDs?

House of Steel, intro to superdreadnoughts:

"Their true strength is in the concentrated fire a battle squadron can create, and the existence of even a single battle squadron automatically propels a naval force into one of the top two dozen or so navies in the galaxy."

Also, http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/181/1

First, those of you who are arguing that the vast majority of the League's system defense forces are not -- and have not been, for centuries -- in serious "defense mode," are essentially correct. Very, very few of the League's systems see any need to have anything except the equivalent of Coast Guard cutters (LACs).

Owning a single battle squadron puts you in the top 25. Almost all SDFs within the League are LAC based.

Sigs wrote:I just cannot wrap my mind around someone spending 6 centuries on something like this only to rush in the last few years without preparing for all contingencies. After all the MA does not face the same problem with manpower that Manticore and Haven do, they can for all intents and purposes "grow" their population and they know the timetable so logically I would be ready ahead of time as opposed to being ready just in time. But again that is just my thinking, because if there is no major fleet awaiting the GA it basically means that they(MA) are one misstep from having their plans completely ruined if the existence of the Darius System comes out to the GA and the list of members of the RF and the role they play also comes out… if that happens it is game over for them.

The Alignment is not interested in overt military conquest of the galaxy, at least not until the final phase. Their grand plan has been derailed and they have activated contigency plans.

It can't be as simple as "growing" a population sufficient to build, support and man a galactic occupation force. For one, whatever tinkering has been done with their genes, they are still humans requiring education to use technology, immersion in a social contract(or the twisted Mesan version of one), persuaded to be loyal to the great plan.

If it were, no slave would attempt to escape. And yet there are enough escaped slaves to seize and colonise a world of their own.

munroburton wrote:

Sigs wrote:I just cannot wrap my mind around someone spending 6 centuries on something like this only to rush in the last few years without preparing for all contingencies. After all the MA does not face the same problem with manpower that Manticore and Haven do, they can for all intents and purposes "grow" their population and they know the timetable so logically I would be ready ahead of time as opposed to being ready just in time. But again that is just my thinking, because if there is no major fleet awaiting the GA it basically means that they(MA) are one misstep from having their plans completely ruined if the existence of the Darius System comes out to the GA and the list of members of the RF and the role they play also comes out… if that happens it is game over for them.

The Alignment is not interested in overt military conquest of the galaxy, at least not until the final phase. Their grand plan has been derailed and they have activated contigency plans.

It can't be as simple as "growing" a population sufficient to build, support and man a galactic occupation force. For one, whatever tinkering has been done with their genes, they are still humans requiring education to use technology, immersion in a social contract(or the twisted Mesan version of one), persuaded to be loyal to the great plan.

If it were, no slave would attempt to escape. And yet there are enough escaped slaves to seize and colonise a world of their own.

Furthermore, a unique astrographical situation makes Darius a place the Alignment can hide and isolate from the galaxy. The slave population there can be kept free of the Ballroom agents and ideas; the galaxy can be kept ignorant of Darius' existence and capabilities. What they can hide in plain sight in the RF SDF's, they do; Darius represents what they can hide out of all sight.

Darius is about as large as can be and they don't seem to have access to multiple Darii. Although it could be, for all we know, that they do have a remote Plan Z based on that hypothetical many thousands of light-years distant hidden colony group, in case everything remotely near League space gets exposed. If they do, then all of that isn't in play for any of these plans and it's got to be so well hidden that it may not even be openly discussed within the Detweiler family.

Enough surprises will derail any plan, however, thorough it is, and the Alignment has never had infinite resources. They're a tiny, tiny, tiny clique trying to rearrange human civilization. They're not going to manage that with sheer force, and even if their manipulations have massive backups for contingencies, enough exposure or enough unpredictable, minuscule probability things actually happening can still force improvisations or wreck the plan entirely.

JeffEngel wrote:
The Alignment is not interested in overt military conquest of the galaxy, at least not until the final phase. Their grand plan has been derailed and they have activated contigency plans.

It can't be as simple as "growing" a population sufficient to build, support and man a galactic occupation force. For one, whatever tinkering has been done with their genes, they are still humans requiring education to use technology, immersion in a social contract(or the twisted Mesan version of one), persuaded to be loyal to the great plan.

If it were, no slave would attempt to escape. And yet there are enough escaped slaves to seize and colonise a world of their own.

Furthermore, a unique astrographical situation makes Darius a place the Alignment can hide and isolate from the galaxy. The slave population there can be kept free of the Ballroom agents and ideas; the galaxy can be kept ignorant of Darius' existence and capabilities. What they can hide in plain sight in the RF SDF's, they do; Darius represents what they can hide out of all sight.

Darius is about as large as can be and they don't seem to have access to multiple Darii. Although it could be, for all we know, that they do have a remote Plan Z based on that hypothetical many thousands of light-years distant hidden colony group, in case everything remotely near League space gets exposed. If they do, then all of that isn't in play for any of these plans and it's got to be so well hidden that it may not even be openly discussed within the Detweiler family.

Enough surprises will derail any plan, however, thorough it is, and the Alignment has never had infinite resources. They're a tiny, tiny, tiny clique trying to rearrange human civilization. They're not going to manage that with sheer force, and even if their manipulations have massive backups for contingencies, enough exposure or enough unpredictable, minuscule probability things actually happening can still force improvisations or wreck the plan entirely.[/quote]


Isen't the RF supposed to draw core and shell systems by offering security? Security that the SLN cannot give? How would they do that if they are using the same obsolete and harmless fleet?

If I am the leader of a core system, I would seriously consider going forth on my own or with a group of my neighbours rather than "join" a new nation that is offering me security that amounts to a placebo. For me to join the RF they need to offer something more than what I can get on my own, for them to be able to do that there needs to be a secret component, a fleet that is technologically if not equal pretty damn close to the GA, preferably without at least initially any MA technology.

If the MA has only a few dozen warships then the "war" with the GA might prove to be very, very short because no matter how much effort you put to clean up after yourself, something likely slipped or someone will talk etc… if they get the name of even one system that belongs to the RF then all they have to do is to wait out and see who that system joins with and then pretend they are a nail and hammer them.

As for the manpower I am suggesting that they can essentially "grow" the people and then train them, I am not suggesting a galactic occupation I am suggesting having the ability to predict the time when you would need a fleet and get the people needed trained. The benefit is that instead of having to convince a sufficient number of capable people to join your military like the RMN does or force them in like the PN did in the first war, they can plan on how many they need and get them and then train them.

So either the RF is going to invite other systems to join them for security or they will go out and conquer other systems, either way you will need a fleet to provide security or force others to join you.

Sigs wrote:Isen't the RF supposed to draw core and shell systems by offering security? Security that the SLN cannot give? How would they do that if they are using the same obsolete and harmless fleet?

Most of us believe that most or all of the RF are on the top-25 list. Ergo, once combined, they are a force to be reckoned with by anyone but the SLN and the Havenite Quadrant navies.

Part of the MAlign's master plan was to stick Manticore in the middle of a two-front war with the League and Haven, causing maximum damage to all three. That's why Detweiler panicked and launched Oyster Bay in response to Lovat, because Manticore had finally achieved an unmatchable advantage when they squeezed a FTL com into a MDM. One that would allow it to win a two-front war without incurring heavy losses.

And it is a mistake to think the RF SDFs are completely obsolete. They've been sending observers to the Havenite wars and paying attention.

munroburton wrote:And it is a mistake to think the RF SDFs are completely obsolete. They've been sending observers to the Havenite wars and paying attention.

At the very least, they will have Cataphracts of all sizes, which gives them a range advantage over anything except the RMN, GSN, RHN and IAN.

1: Withdraw all of my forces to the Core

2: Publicly disavow everything the prior administration did in Haven sector and offer a ceasefire while :acknowledging Beowulf's right to withdraw from the League.

3: Gather a bunch of the worst OFS officers and govenors for public crimes against humanity trials.

4: Pack space around my major shipbuilding centers with as many missile pods as I can make.

5: Start working on an SL Bolthole

6: Get together every Self Defense force Haven/Manticore war observer I can get to come to Earth with every weapons and ship design expert to brief the experts so they can start working on ideas for ship and weapons that can match or at least defend themselves against Haven Sector tech. Then have the observers brief officers on the weapons and tactics observed and start running any suggested tactics through the sims no matter how crazy sounding while increasing the GA's abilities to worst confirmed data plus twentyfive percent and see what, if anything works.

7: Activate or insert some deep cover agents into the intelligence apparatus of any small nations near the GA or smaller GA members. Order them to gather as much information on Haven Sector hardware as they can. If some small independent nations get sold some older Haven Sector hardware buy some of it under the table for study.

munroburton wrote:
Most of us believe that most or all of the RF are on the top-25 list. Ergo, once combined, they are a force to be reckoned with by anyone but the SLN and the Havenite Quadrant navies.

It doesn't make sense to me to offer protection from everyone but the two potential threats on every systems mind. What is the pitch? The SLN can't protect you from the GA so come on over but keep in mind we can't protect you from the League or the GA but we will protect you from everything else…

munroburton wrote:Part of the MAlign's master plan was to stick Manticore in the middle of a two-front war with the League and Haven, causing maximum damage to all three. That's why Detweiler panicked and launched Oyster Bay in response to Lovat, because Manticore had finally achieved an unmatchable advantage when they squeezed a FTL com into a MDM. One that would allow it to win a two-front war without incurring heavy losses.

That is what I don't get about the MA, they are supposed to be these super badass who planned who have been working on a master plan for 600+ years yet all they came up with was this? I mean come on, even if they were successful there was no guarantee that they would get one weak opponent, but even if they did, weak is a relative term they might have ended up with the League collapsing, Manticore or Haven Subjugated by the other but still in possession of a few hundred SD's that could essentially make the rest of the Galaxy's warships in to a whole lot of scrap metal. this suggests that there is a knockout punch somewhere for whoever was left standing after the SLN vs Manticore vs Haven war. Now that they have Haven and Manticore on the same side it might very well be that those preparation won't be enough to fight an open war, but it might be enough to give the GA a run for their money.

munroburton wrote:And it is a mistake to think the RF SDFs are completely obsolete. They've been sending observers to the Havenite wars and paying attention.

I figure it would be the same for the RF SDF's as the Beowulf SDF, they would not want to attract any unwanted attention by the SLN before they are ready to act thus leading me to believe that if they have a fleet that could offer a challenge to either the League, the GA or both it will be secret for the moment, because otherwise the GA will start asking why these SDF's are so much more advanced than the rest of the Galaxy except for the GA.

Weird Harold wrote:

munroburton wrote:And it is a mistake to think the RF SDFs are completely obsolete. They've been sending observers to the Havenite wars and paying attention.

At the very least, they will have Cataphracts of all sizes, which gives them a range advantage over anything except the RMN, GSN, RHN and IAN.

Which would mean that they would not be able to protect anyone from anything. People will be running for the hills being worried about the League and the GA, saying that you have a fleet able to threaten one but not the other doesn't make me feel all safe inside. Besides, anything that may be presented as MA technology int heir hands means that the second they rear their head the GA will destroy them as a political unit thereby putting a pretty big wrinkle in the MA's 600 year plans.

What you need protection from are pirates and war lords. You can come to some sort of political deal with the GA and other political units, you can't come to a political deal with someone who wants to paint the wall with your blood.

There are probably 10,000 active SLN ships, plus the many thousands of ships in SDFs. Do you think some might end up out of work and looking for easy picking? Many SL worlds essentially have 20 old-school LACs as their SDF. Which will last about the time of flight of the first missile salvo against a ex-SL BC. So unless you really want to submit to the first guy to show up in a real warship you need some better options. And submitting to the first guy with a real warship doesn't help you with the second guy with a real warship. Cue Tenn's "The Liberation of Earth".

JeffEngel wrote:Furthermore, a unique astrographical situation makes Darius a place the Alignment can hide and isolate from the galaxy. The slave population there can be kept free of the Ballroom agents and ideas; the galaxy can be kept ignorant of Darius' existence and capabilities. What they can hide in plain sight in the RF SDF's, they do; Darius represents what they can hide out of all sight.

I don't know what this "unique astrographical situation" is. All I know is that it's one of the termini (or close to one of the termini) of the Felix junction, and that it's far enough away from anything else that it's unlikely to be discovered by someone stumbling over it. That's unusual, but hardly unique.