Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...

1) Philippines was USA Territory at the time that had recently been at war with the local population. Therefore why all the manpower already there. Yes, it was slated for independence in 45', but...

2) War industrial capacity was being ramped up in 40' not 41. In 40, the major naval bill went through and nearly 4000 aircraft were built(started in 39). Remember at that time Britain had built roughly 8000 in 39 and 15,000 in 40. This naval bill saw results in naval 43' and 44'.

Lets list what was bought with that $8B+
18 carriers
2 Iowas
5 Montanas
6 Alaskas
27 Cruisers
118 Destroyers
43 Submarines
15,000 aircraft
etc etc etc Auxillary shipping by the thousand...

That act was then followed by the 41 Lend Lease act and the subsequent LARGER 1942 naval expansion act that blithly added another 2 Million tons of aircraft carriers, cruisers, and destroyers. A tidy 50% increase over the 1940 bill! The only reason any Lend lease goods were able to be shipped at all was due to the massive ramp up in ALL production facilities in 39 and 40. In many cases 1938 for the bomber and fighter aircraft production. Everyone knew war was coming. Brits knew sooner and were purchasing every aircraft they could from the USA no matter what it was. No matter what Chamberlain said publicly. In actuality, they were gearing up.

This led to the 1942 aircraft production explosion. For instance in 42' the USA built nearly as many Naval aircraft as Britain and its entire commonwealth built of all types(17,000 verses 22,000). 45,000 fighters/bombers in 42 which then doubled again in 43.

One could argue that the war was over in 42 and would have been won if not a single aircraft, ship, or bullet had been produced after beginning of 43. For sure this is true from 44 onwards.

kzt wrote:Remember that growing your own wheat for your farm is interstate commerce and prohibiting people from owning military weapons is totally in keeping with the 2nd Amendment. So I'll bet the SL courts will approve the interpretation. They certainly should, as they are all appointed by the actual SL government and understand the stakes.

But it will probably take a while for this to reach the courts, as someone has to file a suit and have standing. Which means a sovereign system needs to formally file a suit. Then their will be the procedural motions. But in 10 years or so there will be a decision and in the meantime things need to be done.

Here's the most important thing about taxes: in the end, they're necessarily voluntary. You think any of those Solarian member systems is going to voluntarily raise taxes on their own people to funnel money into a League government which is clearly corrupt and has just been proven to be incompetent to boot - especially when all their own local economies are about to take a pounding from Manticore's wormhole blockades? Especially when the act is clearly unconstitutional?

Nope. All those domestic opposition parties would slaughter them at the polls if they tried it, and nobody - nobody - is going to pay a dime until the courts rule that the tax is constitutional. Which, as you say, will take about 10 years.

Only if they think their individual systems are all going to get conquered and subjected to the kind of rule that the Solarian League has refrained from yoking around their necks does serious tax reform happen in the Solarian League, and even then it's a real stretch.

kzt wrote:

Crown Loyalist wrote:(3) Way, way too many "members" of the Solarian League want out.

The parts that want out are generally not important. Other than Beowulf, name a core system that isn't a RF member who wants out.

That's a ridiculous question, since we've only ever seen one core planet of the Solarian League (other than Earth) close up: Beowulf.

One-third of the League refused to vote to sanction Beowulf, which already suggests there's disaffection with the government since that government pulled out all the stops to get that vote passed.

And to say the parts that want out are not important is also ridiculous. The parts that want out constitute a huge percentage of the Solarian League's revenue supply.

Crown Loyalist wrote:And to say the parts that want out are not important is also ridiculous. The parts that want out constitute a huge percentage of the Solarian League's revenue supply.

I believe we have been discussing fixing that minor problem.

kzt wrote:

SWM wrote:It's a constitutional limitation. I don't think it would be that easy for the SL to change it.

Remember that growing your own wheat for your farm is interstate commerce and prohibiting people from owning military weapons is totally in keeping with the 2nd Amendment. So I'll bet the SL courts will approve the interpretation. They certainly should, as they are all appointed by the actual SL government and understand the stakes.

But it will probably take a while for this to reach the courts, as someone has to file a suit and have standing. Which means a sovereign system needs to formally file a suit. Then their will be the procedural motions. But in 10 years or so there will be a decision and in the meantime things need to be done.

Or the individual sovereign systems will react to this infringement in their powers by simply breaking free of the League. The Mandarins would need the assistance of the sovereign system governments to implement and collect any direct tax; so for that matter those governments might just ignore the unconstitutional order to do so while all this gets tried in the courts. The League systems are even less controlled or influenced by the central government than the U.S. Stated were under the Articles of Confederation.

Unless there's widespread buy-in any attempt for the Mandarins to seize more power and funding seem likely to fail. Any attempt to coerce the various sovereign governments by force would shatter the League.

Maybe they will, or maybe they won't. You got to do what you got to do.

But I would certainly paint anyone attempting to quit the league, the sole stronghold of civilization for a thousand years, as an agent of the manate's or the mesan's who is attempting to sell out civilization for gain. Literally, you are an enemy of human civilization. And I bet I could sell it.

kzt wrote:Maybe they will, or maybe they won't. You got to do what you got to do.

But I would certainly paint anyone attempting to quit the league, the sole stronghold of civilization for a thousand years, as an agent of the manate's or the mesan's who is attempting to sell out civilization for gain. Literally, you are an enemy of human civilization. And I bet I could sell it.

Hey, are you the senior research assistant to Undersecretary Abruzzi?

Seriously, I have wanted to start a thread on Manticore and if they can economically survive post-war (we've seen enough history to know governments can survive during harsh times of war, but collapse soon after (post 1945 Britain is a good example, IMHO).

Also, in regards to:

The parts that want out are generally not important. Other than Beowulf, name a core system that isn't a RF member who wants out.

There is this quote from ART:

...Not with the Royal Manticoran Navy and its allies only a single wormhole transit away. That was bad enough, but according to his agents within the Assembly, it appeared the system delegations of Strathmore, Kenichi, and Galen were strongly inclined to recommend that their own star systems follow Beowulf’s example!

Now admittedly, those could be Shell systems, but Strathmore and Kenichi are mentioned as governments that Beowulf consulted with in the Chamber of Stars, which I took to mean that they are relatively close neighbors, in the Core.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

HB of CJ wrote:Well, it is excellent Science Fiction. In the excellent books we understand that the Sollies will die before raising their taxes ... because they can not. My thinking was what if that naggy fact was not true? Increased taxes. Quickly. Then what? HB

My position is that it's already too late. The lead times on producing the things the SLN needs to match the GA in conventional warfare in large enough quantities to matter are just too long.

kzt wrote:Maybe they will, or maybe they won't. You got to do what you got to do.

But I would certainly paint anyone attempting to quit the league, the sole stronghold of civilization for a thousand years, as an agent of the manate's or the mesan's who is attempting to sell out civilization for gain. Literally, you are an enemy of human civilization. And I bet I could sell it.

I'm sure you could sell it to plenty of people. I'm fairly certain you could not sell it to system government leaders. There's a big worry though that the system government leaders may have to capitulate to numerous voting idiots who may be buying it, but the voting idiots may be quieted down when they are told that the choice is being an enemy of civilization or paying more taxes - to an entity that's starved for money, has so far been unable to tax them at all, and would be taxing them, in this case, outside any legal bounds since it's illegal to begin with. Under those circumstances, being an enemy of civilization may be tolerable.

It's a very reasonable amount, just $20 per person. Otherwise, you should be ready for the traditional Manticoran greeting provided to SL governments. You can ask President Lombroso about this. Well you could, except that Manticore killed him, every member of his government and their entire families.