weber , and other american authors and the german language

I have now found references to Grossadmiral Koester as early as 1908, in both English and German. I will yield the point. The proper title in German probably was Grossadmiral.

Theemile wrote:... And Please note, I am a German speaker, not natively, but my Schule-junge Deutsch (Schoolboy German) has led me into (and out of) several embarrassing incidents over the years where English and German use varies (forex: Knocking a girl down in German is the same as knocking her the other direction here.) On top of that, I've had instructors from Switzerland, Austria, Schlieswig-Holstein and East Berlin (She crossed the wall as a young girl ~1960), and have seen that local variants of the language vary almost as much as English does here in the US, So I'm certain if German went to the Stars, it would drift as much as anything else.

You're certainly right concerning your last point about the drift of the languages. But books are most definitely not written for the people which will live a 1.000 or more years in the future - but for the contemporaries of the author. And the number of people in Germany who read english texts (because they need them for their work or because their favorite author happens to be an englishspeaking guy/gal) is growing. Slowly, but steadily.

So, to get the use of foreign language vocabularies/phrases (german, french, chinese ... name it, you get it) right, it comes definitely under the heading of "a really, really good idea" to consult with a person who is a native speaker of the language in question before you hurt it (unintentionally, I'm sure).

And (just for once) try to see the situation the other way around: Imagine, you are a fan of a german/french/russian/whatever-non-english-language author and you know the mothertongue of the author in question well enough to read his/her books in the original language. And you see him or her use english words or phrases with a grammar and/or a spelling you simply can't tolerate. At least not from (one of) your favorite author(s). How would you like that?

By the way - the correct translation for schoolboy in german is Schuljunge. Not Schule-junge. (sorry, could not resist, but it underscores the things I just said once more)

I wouldn't have a problem at all. I would be cognizant of the basic fact:

An author does not have the time to find a native speaker to placate a miniscule number of potential pedantic retentive anal readers.

That potential number of pedantic retentive anal readers would include every single person on this forum BTW...

Relax wrote:I wouldn't have a problem at all. I would be cognizant of the basic fact:

An author does not have the time to find a native speaker to placate a miniscule number of potential pedantic retentive anal readers.

That potential number of pedantic retentive anal readers would include every single person on this forum BTW...

Sorry, but that is plain and simply wrong. To write (or dictate) the book is the one thing which (imho) takes the least time to complete. It is story/character-development, the searching for and implementation of the background infos you need in the story, the world-building etc, which consumes probably most of the time you invest in a new book - and a part of that process should be to make sure, that the words and/or phrases in a foreign language I intend to use in the book in question are correct.

By the way, there's an easy way to do it - simply contact the consulate of a nation with native speakers of the language you need which is next to your home. Ask there for the cultural attache. Or, maybe even simpler - look for an university with a linguistic department for the language you need and ask for help there. After all, we're living in a time with information-gathering- and communication possibilities which are nearly instantaneous - it shouldn't take long to find the persons/informations you need.

If you think someone is going to pay/find someone to help them write 2 words in a foreign language when it is a fiction novel and ~~~ good enough is... well... ~~~ good enough, you sir are delusional. You would have a point if this were a non Fiction book. It is not.

If you know a friend, then sure you will run it past them.

You might have noticed, but the books are not even edited for basic grammer or spelling in English. And now you are going to Bitch about a foreign language word or two????

Eagleeye wrote:

Theemile wrote:... And Please note, I am a German speaker, not natively, but my Schule-junge Deutsch (Schoolboy German) has led me into (and out of) several embarrassing incidents over the years where English and German use varies (forex: Knocking a girl down in German is the same as knocking her the other direction here.) On top of that, I've had instructors from Switzerland, Austria, Schlieswig-Holstein and East Berlin (She crossed the wall as a young girl ~1960), and have seen that local variants of the language vary almost as much as English does here in the US, So I'm certain if German went to the Stars, it would drift as much as anything else.

You're certainly right concerning your last point about the drift of the languages. But books are most definitely not written for the people which will live a 1.000 or more years in the future - but for the contemporaries of the author. And the number of people in Germany who read english texts (because they need them for their work or because their favorite author happens to be an englishspeaking guy/gal) is growing. Slowly, but steadily.

So, to get the use of foreign language vocabularies/phrases (german, french, chinese ... name it, you get it) right, it comes definitely under the heading of "a really, really good idea" to consult with a person who is a native speaker of the language in question before you hurt it (unintentionally, I'm sure).

And (just for once) try to see the situation the other way around: Imagine, you are a fan of a german/french/russian/whatever-non-english-language author and you know the mothertongue of the author in question well enough to read his/her books in the original language. And you see him or her use english words or phrases with a grammar and/or a spelling you simply can't tolerate. At least not from (one of) your favorite author(s). How would you like that?

By the way - the correct translation for schoolboy in german is Schuljunge. Not Schule-junge. (sorry, could not resist, but it underscores the things I just said once more)

Actually, what you are suggesting is like the Safehold books and Bazell books - they use phrases and syntax (and spelling) which are not the norm in English, requiring the standard English-speaking readers to process them a little harder to follow along - but it follows the story line where a speaker wouldn't speak 20th century idiomatic English.

Similarly, a roughly translated (or computer translated) document has similar issues. At my elbow is a physics paper by Hermann Minkowski (Albert Einstein's University Math Professor) about moving bodies in electromagnetic fields at relativistic speeds. Fortunately, most of it is math, but I've had to go back to the German original several times because the auto-translation is so bad.

And trust me, I'm not trying to be rude or attack anyone here, I'm just saying there shouldn't be any expectation in this story that these words are contemporary. Yes, they might strike the ear wrong - but Weber does that regularly to his native language as well.

And thank you for "schooling the schoolboy" - My German classes are 25 years in my past and while my reading/listening comprehension is fairly high - when you don't speak it/write it every day/week/year, you get the situation as I said, it's use tends to embarrass you (which, to my example, is what you've done in Mexican Spanish to the girl whom you've just knocked down in German and knocked up in English.)

This discussion is faintly amusing to a native English speaker. We have to endure the US version of English spelling.
Cheers
John

John Prigent wrote:This discussion is faintly amusing to a native English speaker. We have to endure the US version of English spelling.
Cheers
John

I see your point. But after those first settlers moved across the pond both culture and language would have started to drift from the shared original simply due to different life experiences. And it wouldn't be only the Americans doing the drifting. On neither side are we speaking quite the same language as we were when we went our separate ways.

In fact, there is no correct original template. Compare Shakespeare to Chaucer and you will find the Emglish or the two eras quite different.

Bottom line: Language is dynamic and there really is no "right" or "wrong" form to it.

Don

n7axw wrote:you will find the Emglish or the two eras quite different.

I quite agree...

Relax wrote:

n7axw wrote:you will find the Emglish or the two eras quite different.

I quite agree...

Touche... Of course, that isn't English, is it?

Don