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Apollo Counter.

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Re: Apollo Counter.
Post by kzt   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:01 am

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Now. Things will improve somewhat in the short term as software is modified and ship formations are changed. Next gen of SL ships will have much denser and also more effective missile defenses. All the info they need to do this is out there, they just need to gather it.
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Re: Apollo Counter.
Post by George J. Smith   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:46 am

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kzt wrote:Now. Things will improve somewhat in the short term as software is modified and ship formations are changed. Next gen of SL ships will have much denser and also more effective missile defenses. All the info they need to do this is out there, they just need to gather it.


What next gen of SLN ships :?:

They will not be given the opportunity to build any next gen SLN ships
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Re: Apollo Counter.
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:10 am

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kzt wrote:Now. Things will improve somewhat in the short term as software is modified and ship formations are changed. Next gen of SL ships will have much denser and also more effective missile defenses. All the info they need to do this is out there, they just need to gather it.

And some of their deployed tech is still better than we've seen out if Haven.
Based on the numbers Duckk gave on the CM drive on the Cataphract they should be able to have/launch CMs that come very close to matching the extended range of Manticore's new Mk31s (not seen until post-Sidemore)

I don't believe we've seen Haven match than 75-second CM drive time...

Edit - though of course they still have grossly insufficient numbers of launchers, with anemic cycle times, and probably badly outdated software (and who knows how good their sensors are). But the drive hardware looks good.
Last edited by Jonathan_S on Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Apollo Counter.
Post by SharkHunter   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:22 am

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Extremely well thought out response. See a couple thoughts below:
Fireflair wrote:The only thing I would like to chime in with is a simple numbers point. As has been demonstrated in each battle with the SLN, they are not prepared for the missile storm they face. Some refuse to believe it, others think it's impossible to control. What ever they believe, it is the reality of the Haven Sector combat environment. Thousands of missiles in a salvo, with multiple salvos in flight.

Even if the missiles are sent with light speed controls, and the SLN has plenty of time to see them coming, their defenses are beyond saturated.

And as some one noted earlier, this is before you count Dragon's Teeth and Dazzlers, etc. All the other tech upgrades the Alliance has will just make the attack wave that much more deadly.

The other thing not really considered is the lack of skill in battlefleet. They can't stack a wall the way the RMN can. Or even as good as the Havenites could. Their skills are beyond rusty.

So my thought is that even if you kill the Apollo control missile, the wave of missiles is still thick enough to destroy the SLN.
Part of the thread was about disrupting the 23-E (Apollo's) FTL control by it's mother ship at some extended range between an RMN ship and the SL. We're not even sure how they'd pull it off, but let's say they did so at 20mm km or so which is outside the range of even the best SLN sims so far.

You then have one pods worth of attack missiles still steered by an extremely capable controller AI, possibly with a Dazzler or Dragons tooth missile (one/both?) with a "last best known" target/ECM selection towards a ship that's going to get at most one shot at stopping that missile and all of it's warheads. As you've pointed out. End result is still a nasty set of Ka-Booms on whatever ship the RMN is targeting, and still no way to counterattack the GA's missile launching ship.
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Re: Apollo Counter.
Post by n7axw   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:54 am

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kzt wrote:Now. Things will improve somewhat in the short term as software is modified and ship formations are changed. Next gen of SL ships will have much denser and also more effective missile defenses. All the info they need to do this is out there, they just need to gather it.


Provided there is a next generation of SLN ships...

My own suspicion is that they won't have time to absorb their lessons.

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Re: Apollo Counter.
Post by Somtaaw   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:52 pm

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kzt wrote:Now. Things will improve somewhat in the short term as software is modified and ship formations are changed. Next gen of SL ships will have much denser and also more effective missile defenses. All the info they need to do this is out there, they just need to gather it.


Researching the combat data, while wearing NIH goggles, whilst in the midst of an Economic Crisis, and looking down the barrel of a gun regarding the Constitution...

Nope, can't see the SLN as an instituion making anything "new". The best hope they've got is they might get authorization to start building more of whatever their latest in a class is... Vega for SD's, Nevada BC's, and War Harvest tincans.

Any development is going to happen as an SDF response, probably due to the League splintering. So it really boils down to, what systems get the operational data, and whether they have Naval Yards to try and make use of it.
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Re: Apollo Counter.
Post by JeffEngel   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:39 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:
kzt wrote:Now. Things will improve somewhat in the short term as software is modified and ship formations are changed. Next gen of SL ships will have much denser and also more effective missile defenses. All the info they need to do this is out there, they just need to gather it.


Researching the combat data, while wearing NIH goggles, whilst in the midst of an Economic Crisis, and looking down the barrel of a gun regarding the Constitution...

Nope, can't see the SLN as an instituion making anything "new". The best hope they've got is they might get authorization to start building more of whatever their latest in a class is... Vega for SD's, Nevada BC's, and War Harvest tincans.

Any development is going to happen as an SDF response, probably due to the League splintering. So it really boils down to, what systems get the operational data, and whether they have Naval Yards to try and make use of it.

Bits of the SLN - particularly shore-side staff positions - will keep thinking and "working" and will become parts of Core World successor states. Same goes for the BF shipyards there, if they survive - and if they are destroyed by the GA, chances are the shipyard workers at least will. So as they wake up, re-develop actual professional skills, and learn from the large catalog of mistakes they've witnessed - they'll learn.

So there's room to discuss the next generation of "SLN" ships and gear in the context of Core World successor states, or a hypothetical League rump there. Mind you, whatever that state is, it's likely to do whatever it can to avoid getting in another tangle with the GA and Apollo missiles.
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Re: Apollo Counter.
Post by kzt   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:43 pm

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It's not by accident that I used the phrase "SL ships", not "SLN ships".
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Re: Apollo Counter.
Post by Somtaaw   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:14 pm

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Still loosely falls in my response of it's gonna be whichever systems have full-fledged Naval Yards already built.

But they still have to get past the NIH blinkers, which so far have only been done by a) Maya sector, and b) Techno-Dyne (Industries of Yilden, I think is the full name)

And while TIY have sort of gotten past the NIH syndrome, they still believe it's less that their hardware blows, than it being Manties being really well trained.

They might eventually™ get a Ghost Rider knock-off, but it won't happen until around the time GA is likely forcing the various splintered League states into peace talks.


-long(er) endurance RD's and more powerful decoys
-early generation FTL for their ships (unlikely for their RDs)
-possibly puzzling out Manticore has miniturized their fusion power cores enough to place in drones and missiles without being able to duplicate it

I just can't see anyone from current, or possible future SLN actually figuring it out without SEM outright giving it to them.
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Re: Apollo Counter.
Post by SWM   » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:54 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:Still loosely falls in my response of it's gonna be whichever systems have full-fledged Naval Yards already built.

But they still have to get past the NIH blinkers, which so far have only been done by a) Maya sector, and b) Techno-Dyne (Industries of Yilden, I think is the full name)

That's not true. David has told us that a number of Solarian member states (probably ones with their own SDFs) sent observers to watch the First Havenite War (and presumably the Second War, too). These systems were not as complacent about the preeminence of Solarian naval technology, and kept close track of developments in the Haven Quadrant.

So for more than a decade, some Solarian systems have been aware of the leaps Manticore has made, and probably trying to duplicate them.
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