Emigrating to Torch or elsewhere in the alliances.

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--

fallsfromtrees wrote:What makes you think that Torch is not part of the GA. They were certainly present in force at the meeting to discus how to deal with Filareta - which had Haven, Beowulf, Manticore, Grayson, and Torch represented. Andermani was not there by conscious decision, and there was still discussion of sending treecats to the Empire.

I think that they're officially still "neutrals" except towards Mesa with whom they have declared war, and have the mutual defense treaty between the major powers. They're treated sort of as a bridge between Maya and Erewhon to maintain the fiction that those groups aren't in direct opposition to the League powers that be.

That's my belief as well.

I don't see where being publicly part of the GA is good for Torch, or even Erewhon and Maya.

At a minimum coming out openly as part of an alliance that's de-facto at war with the Solarian League (or at least its Navy and bureaucracy) means Maya has to drop their special arrangement; or be exposed as acting against the League's interest.

Then, Erewhon would likely have to do the same, otherwise Maya's agreement with Erewhon would be under some ugly scrutiny.

And then, as a relatively close, and apparently weak member of the GA, Torch might be subject to direct attack by the SLN. Now the GA can probably spare enough forces to keep that from being a successful attack. But even the preparations to attack Torch would likely send too many SLN ships (and hence scrutiny) to Maya. That alone would have a good chance of tipping that sector's hand too early.


And what's the upside for Torch? They already have defensive agreements from Maya, Haven, and now presumably Manticore, to keep them from getting picked off. So what do they really gain by publicly joining the GA?

Jonathan_S wrote:
I don't see where being publicly part of the GA is good for Torch, or even Erewhon and Maya.

At a minimum coming out openly as part of an alliance that's de-facto at war with the Solarian League (or at least its Navy and bureaucracy) means Maya has to drop their special arrangement; or be exposed as acting against the League's interest.

Then, Erewhon would likely have to do the same, otherwise Maya's agreement with Erewhon would be under some ugly scrutiny.

And then, as a relatively close, and apparently weak member of the GA, Torch might be subject to direct attack by the SLN. Now the GA can probably spare enough forces to keep that from being a successful attack. But even the preparations to attack Torch would likely send too many SLN ships (and hence scrutiny) to Maya. That alone would have a good chance of tipping that sector's hand too early.


And what's the upside for Torch? They already have defensive agreements from Maya, Haven, and now presumably Manticore, to keep them from getting picked off. So what do they really gain by publicly joining the GA?

And who said anything about admitting publicly that they are members of the GA. It is certainly possible that the GA isn't running around saying "We now x pigmy states supporting us against the SL". That doesn't mean that x pigmy states can't be secret members of the GA.

kzt wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:I would not be surprised to find that Lovat had been one of the centers for building ships prior to the Harrington raid, just as I would not be surprised to find that Jouett is another. Did we ever have any textev that Haven and Bolthole were the only two places that the RH was building warships. My impression was that there were a number of yards that started building warships after the great reveal of what had been build at Bolthole.

Somewhere David said how many sites built ships in peepland. It was more then one or two, it was something like 4-5 for SDs and a bunch more that built light warship.

It was, here's the textev:

At All Costs wrote:Among other things, Forge's current population of almost three billion was deeply involved in the enormous naval construction programs Thomas Theisman had initiated after going public about the existence of the Republican Navy's new ship types. To be sure, the Lovat System wasn't one of the primary yard sites. Its local industry was much more heavily committed to the construction of light units—light attack craft and the new light cruiser classes—and fleet support vessels—ammunition ships, personnel transports, general cargo haulers, and repair ships.

That's why I thought it would be fun and poetic justice for the Manticore to help rebuild Lovat at the same time that the Lovat workers help rebuild the RMN's ability to whack their mutual enemy/enemies. I imagine making Loval a major freight transshipping mode within Haven and as a welcome port for the RMMC would go a long way towards erasing the sting of the earlier attack. Plus rebuilding a shipyard named the RHSS Javier Giscard would be the ultimate in uber-coolness. Rose would approve, I think.

fallsfromtrees wrote:And who said anything about admitting publicly that they are members of the GA. It is certainly possible that the GA isn't running around saying "We now x pigmy states supporting us against the SL". That doesn't mean that x pigmy states can't be secret members of the GA.

Consider the culture surrounding the aristocracy. How many famous people from Torch showed up? What are the odds that this didn't show up with pictures in half the papers on Manticore the next day.

kzt wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:And who said anything about admitting publicly that they are members of the GA. It is certainly possible that the GA isn't running around saying "We now x pigmy states supporting us against the SL". That doesn't mean that x pigmy states can't be secret members of the GA.

Consider the culture surrounding the aristocracy. How many famous people from Torch showed up? What are the odds that this didn't show up with pictures in half the papers on Manticore the next day.

So what? A prince royal of the Andermani appeared on Manticore - doesn't mean the Andermani are members of the GA. It can easily passed off as a state visit of the Torch government.

fallsfromtrees wrote:So what? A prince royal of the Andermani appeared on Manticore - doesn't mean the Andermani are members of the GA. It can easily passed off as a state visit of the Torch government.

Not to mention the fig leaf provided by Roger and Rivka's wedding which all of those foreign dignitaries attended.

Weird Harold wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:So what? A prince royal of the Andermani appeared on Manticore - doesn't mean the Andermani are members of the GA. It can easily passed off as a state visit of the Torch government.

Not to mention the fig leaf provided by Roger and Rivka's wedding which all of those foreign dignitaries attended.

-----------------------

Pulling together the timelines from the 3 current books -- ART / COG / Shad of F -- Roger and Rivka's wedding was shortly after BOM II / Filareta's date with Destiny ; maybe 1-2 weeks

or about the same time (give or take a week) of Michelle's arrival at Meyers.

The Andies are standing aside in the GA - SL fight, but Alizon and Zanzibar were not hit during OB; granted Lester took out a lot of their hardware but their personnel likely evacuated from the Mini-Blackbirds that Skydomes and Hauptman established there.

If (big if) the surviving SLN tech's (1) want to and (2) the GA allows them, then Meyers, McIntosh (both now likely independent) and Zanzibar / Alizon could provide additional locations for SLN personnel to "emigrate" to ........... (and disappear from the SLN radar)

-- Stewart

stewart wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Not to mention the fig leaf provided by Roger and Rivka's wedding which all of those foreign dignitaries attended.

Pulling together the timelines from the 3 current books -- ART / COG / Shad of F -- Roger and Rivka's wedding was shortly after BOM II / Filareta's date with Destiny ; maybe 1-2 weeks

The point was that the wedding inadvertently provided justification for all of the high-ranking visitors to Manticore without necessarily linking them with the formation of the Grand Alliance. Both members and non-members are on the guest list.

The Grand Fleet and Alliance isn't a secret at this point, but the total membership of the Grand Alliance isn't necessarily public information.

A Rising Thunder
Chapter Thirty-three wrote:I wonder if there’s ever been a wedding quite like it?”

“I doubt it,” Emily said. “In fact, I’m pretty darn sure there hasn’t been one like it since the Diaspora got everybody off Old Earth, anyway! Let’s see, we’ve got the Empress of Manticore, the President of the Republic of Haven, the Protector of Grayson, the chairman of the Beowulf Board of Directors, Queen Berry, and the Andermani emperor’s first cousin. Not to mention your own humble self as Steadholder Harrington and the commander of the Grand Fleet, followed by a scattering of mere planetary grand dukes, dukes, earls, members of the Havenite cabinet, three other members of the Beowulf Board of Directors, the chairman of the Alliance joint chiefs of staff, the First Space Lord, the Havenite chief of naval operations, the Beowulfan chief of naval operations, High Admiral Yanakov, Admiral Yu, two or three dozen ambassadors, and God alone only knows who else. I’m sure there’ve been other weddings that had the same guest count or better, but bringing all of these people together in one place?”

Weird Harold wrote:"stewart"]"Weird Harold"]

Not to mention the fig leaf provided by Roger and Rivka's wedding which all of those foreign dignitaries attended.

Pulling together the timelines from the 3 current books -- ART / COG / Shad of F -- Roger and Rivka's wedding was shortly after BOM II / Filareta's date with Destiny ; maybe 1-2 weeks
[/quote]

The point was that the wedding inadvertently provided justification for all of the high-ranking visitors to Manticore without necessarily linking them with the formation of the Grand Alliance. Both members and non-members are on the guest list.

The Grand Fleet and Alliance isn't a secret at this point, but the total membership of the Grand Alliance isn't necessarily public information.

A Rising Thunder
Chapter Thirty-three wrote:I wonder if there’s ever been a wedding quite like it?”

“I doubt it,” Emily said. “In fact, I’m pretty darn sure there hasn’t been one like it since the Diaspora got everybody off Old Earth, anyway! Let’s see, we’ve got the Empress of Manticore, the President of the Republic of Haven, the Protector of Grayson, the chairman of the Beowulf Board of Directors, Queen Berry, and the Andermani emperor’s first cousin. Not to mention your own humble self as Steadholder Harrington and the commander of the Grand Fleet, followed by a scattering of mere planetary grand dukes, dukes, earls, members of the Havenite cabinet, three other members of the Beowulf Board of Directors, the chairman of the Alliance joint chiefs of staff, the First Space Lord, the Havenite chief of naval operations, the Beowulfan chief of naval operations, High Admiral Yanakov, Admiral Yu, two or three dozen ambassadors, and God alone only knows who else. I’m sure there’ve been other weddings that had the same guest count or better, but bringing all of these people together in one place?”

[/quote]


---------------

It makes sense for Torch to be part of the GA operations against Mesa -- the liaison corps as discussed in conference in COG.

It doesn't make sense for Torch to publicly be part of the GA for operations against the SL -- they are too publicly tied to Maya after the Manpower / PNE attack and Maya IS a sector of the SL -- however much Barregos and Rosak are saying "nothing to see here"

for public consumption, Torch, Erehwon and Maya are trying to avoid any large-scale scrutiny.

Privately, they all are trying to get their collective forces up to Manty-Buttercup / Haven standards so when the SL finally DOES come apart, they will be like Switzerland -- just too painful to take/retake to be worth the effort.

-- Stewart