What Checkov's Guns have you found in the Honorverse

crewdude48 wrote:I am not sure what series you are reading, but things like "black and white enemies" in no way, shape, or form describes the Honorverse. Yes, the Peeps are the bad guys, but as early as the second book we are introduced to sympathetic and honorable characters in the Peep Navy.

I don't know about "Honorverse", I was strictly speaking about Honor interaction with her adversaries(not just the "Peeps"), in the first couple of books. Where everyone who disagree with Honor ultimate truth is railroaded and portrayed in black&white manner e.g. as an idiot, with no redeeming qualities and or infantile arguments. It also leads to unrealistic situation that makes no sense other than making Honor to be even more AWESOME.

On unrelated issue concerning the second book. Where the bad guys took the initiative again, after meticulous planning and years(?) of setting up the stage. In which they managed to establish local cells on Haven, infiltrate the Havenites top political and military brass and build a forward base in their backyard, using Havenite own resources! who remained completely clueless. They finally put in motion their intricate plan AND Honor's magic cat happened. I hope in later books Honor tactical geniousness do not come down to doing the right thing, technological superiority and some basic deductions.

crewdude48 wrote:As for readers being mostly teens, the How old are Honorverse fans thread more or less completely disproves that falicy.

Even if that was what I said, I am not sure how your little fansite pool disproves it... or contradict my impressions about its content and target audience.

Mor, be grateful that Namelessfly, Waddles for Dessert, Poker, and Thinks Too Much have been absent lately. The rest of us are somewhat milder in our responses.

My opinion is that the characters' virtues or otherwise have been well spread, with nearly as many idiots or villains in Manticore and Grayson as in Haven or the Sollies.

Honor is described with her internal doubts, sexual hang ups, violent tendencies, and personal demons. Quite a lot of the story lines involve how Honor overcomes her personal inadequacies to become the super hero that we all enjoy reading about.

As to ages of those posting here I can testify that we cover a wide range of people with many in their 60s who have had extraordinary and successful lives.

Mor wrote:

crewdude48 wrote:I am not sure what series you are reading, but things like "black and white enemies" in no way, shape, or form describes the Honorverse. Yes, the Peeps are the bad guys, but as early as the second book we are introduced to sympathetic and honorable characters in the Peep Navy.

I don't know about "Honorverse", I was strictly speaking about Honor interaction with her adversaries(not just the "Peeps"), in the first couple of books. Where everyone who disagree with Honor ultimate truth is railroaded and portrayed in black&white manner e.g. as an idiot, with no redeeming qualities and or infantile arguments. It also leads to unrealistic situation that makes no sense other than making Honor to be even more AWESOME.

On unrelated issue concerning the second book. Where the bad guys took the initiative again, after meticulous planning and years(?) of setting up the stage. In which they managed to establish local cells on Haven, infiltrate the Havenites top political and military brass and build a forward base in their backyard, using Havenite own resources! who remained completely clueless. They finally put in motion their intricate plan AND Honor's magic cat happened. I hope in later books Honor tactical geniousness do not come down to doing the right thing, technological superiority and some basic deductions.

crewdude48 wrote:As for readers being mostly teens, the How old are Honorverse fans thread more or less completely disproves that falicy.

Even if that was what I said, I am not sure how your little fansite pool disproves it... or contradict my impressions about its content and target audience.

First, I think that everywhere you said "Haven" or "Havenite" in the above you meant "Grayson". Talk about confusing the issue!

Second, in what regard would you call the portrayal of Alfredo Yu or Thomas Theisman in Book #2, The Honor of the Queen, "black and white"?

The Masadans, sure, but they are clearly identified as a psychotic, sociopathic society from the beginning, and they are not the only opponents.

Furthermore, one can actually argue strongly that within their own belief system, and especially in the case of some of the agents on Grayson, most of them were attempting to act righteously.

Finally, let us not forget that, initially, HOWARD CLINKSCALES could be viewed as some of Honor's "opposition" in that story (although it must be granted that he was always the "honorable opposition".)

(If you don't understand why that name is in caps above, read more books.)

Perhaps you need to expand your view of who/what acts as Honor's opposition to all of those that the author uses that way in any capacity, rather than just those that are clearly opposing warriors by the given astro-political premise of the story.

Now, given all of the above, I will state and grant that the Masadan leadership, and societal values, with perhaps three individual exceptions, are the most purely evil bad guys to my frame of reference in the entire series. That's not even excepting the group you meet much later that is prepared to kill billions to achieve their view of ultimate good.

(For you old fans out there, the three "even worse" individuals I can think of are Cordelia Ransom, Pavel Young, and Denver Summervale. I suppose you could add the warden at Hades, but he was a cameo. Feel free to chime in with any other candidates for "worse than the Masadan Elders".)

dreamrider

BTW - I began reading the series at its inception, 20 years ago...when I was ~43 years old. My several friends who are avid fans but do not follow these forums range in age from about 40 to about 70. Last year at Honorcon, the youngest fan I recall seeing was about 10...but that was David's son, so perhaps we can discount that. The youngest independent attendee I recall seeing was about 30, with the average age being perhaps 40-50.

Not to mention Oscar St. Just and the Detweilers. All of them are perfectly capable slaughter and torture billions upon billions in order to achieve what they presume to be righteous goals and sleep comfortably without a single regret over their actions. Even the most evil villains in the series, like the Masadans, Denver Summervale and Pavel Young have reasons behind their actions. It can be as simple as a seriously warped worldview, but each villain believes their actions are right and just. There is very little evil for the sake of evil.

dreamrider wrote:

Mor wrote:

I don't know about "Honorverse", I was strictly speaking about Honor interaction with her adversaries(not just the "Peeps"), in the first couple of books. Where everyone who disagree with Honor ultimate truth is railroaded and portrayed in black&white manner e.g. as an idiot, with no redeeming qualities and or infantile arguments. It also leads to unrealistic situation that makes no sense other than making Honor to be even more AWESOME.

On unrelated issue concerning the second book. Where the bad guys took the initiative again, after meticulous planning and years(?) of setting up the stage. In which they managed to establish local cells on Haven, infiltrate the Havenites top political and military brass and build a forward base in their backyard, using Havenite own resources! who remained completely clueless. They finally put in motion their intricate plan AND Honor's magic cat happened. I hope in later books Honor tactical geniousness do not come down to doing the right thing, technological superiority and some basic deductions.


Even if that was what I said, I am not sure how your little fansite pool disproves it... or contradict my impressions about its content and target audience.

First, I think that everywhere you said "Haven" or "Havenite" in the above you meant "Grayson". Talk about confusing the issue!

Second, in what regard would you call the portrayal of Alfredo Yu or Thomas Theisman in Book #2, The Honor of the Queen, "black and white"?

The Masadans, sure, but they are clearly identified as a psychotic, sociopathic society from the beginning, and they are not the only opponents.

Furthermore, one can actually argue strongly that within their own belief system, and especially in the case of some of the agents on Grayson, most of them were attempting to act righteously.

Finally, let us not forget that, initially, HOWARD CLINKSCALES could be viewed as some of Honor's "opposition" in that story (although it must be granted that he was always the "honorable opposition".)

(If you don't understand why that name is in caps above, read more books.)

Perhaps you need to expand your view of who/what acts as Honor's opposition to all of those that the author uses that way in any capacity, rather than just those that are clearly opposing warriors by the given astro-political premise of the story.

Now, given all of the above, I will state and grant that the Masadan leadership, and societal values, with perhaps three individual exceptions, are the most purely evil bad guys to my frame of reference in the entire series. That's not even excepting the group you meet much later that is prepared to kill billions to achieve their view of ultimate good.

(For you old fans out there, the three "even worse" individuals I can think of are Cordelia Ransom, Pavel Young, and Denver Summervale. I suppose you could add the warden at Hades, but he was a cameo. Feel free to chime in with any other candidates for "worse than the Masadan Elders".)

dreamrider

BTW - I began reading the series at its inception, 20 years ago...when I was ~43 years old. My several friends who are avid fans but do not follow these forums range in age from about 40 to about 70. Last year at Honorcon, the youngest fan I recall seeing was about 10...but that was David's son, so perhaps we can discount that. The youngest independent attendee I recall seeing was about 30, with the average age being perhaps 40-50.

Hutch wrote:

Joat42 wrote:One could argue that with all the advances with compact fusion bottles, beta²-nodes and such that you could theoretically fit a grav-lance into a big honking missile and it's probably Ms. Foraker that'll come up with a practical solution...

Please, please! Don't hit me!

...

...

Just joking.

*Hutch refrains from hitting Joat42*

....

....

....

*Hutch shoots Joat42 in the face with a Tribarrel*

Gee! I now have ventilation holes all over... You know how silly I sound when I talk now!!!

Hi Joat42,

Keep smiling, but the utter gall at resurrecting or even mentioning TWTSNBN deserves such punishment from Hutch.

IOW, you asked for it.

Should we have a "reach for the tribarrel" page?

As for Mor, he doesn't seem to have read all the books or studied the series to demonstrate that he knows what he's talking about, but I don't think he's trolling. Yet.

L

Joat42 wrote:

Hutch wrote:*quote="Joat42"*
One could argue that with all the advances with compact fusion bottles, beta²-nodes and such that you could theoretically fit a grav-lance into a big honking missile and it's probably Ms. Foraker that'll come up with a practical solution...

Please, please! Don't hit me!

...

...

Just joking. *quote*

*Hutch refrains from hitting Joat42*

....

....

....

*Hutch shoots Joat42 in the face with a Tribarrel*

Gee! I now have ventilation holes all over... You know how silly I sound when I talk now!!!

Joat42 wrote:One could argue that with all the advances with compact fusion bottles, beta²-nodes and such that you could theoretically fit a grav-lance into a big honking missile and it's probably Ms. Foraker that'll come up with a practical solution...

Please, please! Don't hit me!

...

...

Just joking.

Hutch wrote:*Hutch refrains from hitting Joat42*

....

....

....

*Hutch shoots Joat42 in the face with a Tribarrel*

Joat42 wrote:Gee! I now have ventilation holes all over... You know how silly I sound when I talk now!!!

Quite OK, Joat--you ought to see what I'm planning for Skimper....

dreamrider wrote:BTW - I began reading the series at its inception, 20 years ago...when I was ~43 years old. My several friends who are avid fans but do not follow these forums range in age from about 40 to about 70. Last year at Honorcon, the youngest fan I recall seeing was about 10...but that was David's son, so perhaps we can discount that. The youngest independent attendee I recall seeing was about 30, with the average age being perhaps 40-50.

The youngest I saw, and only because he was at the two presentations I was involved with, was high school aged, about 17 or so. In fact, he has me on his Deviant Watch list, and has messaged me a couple times there.

dreamrider wrote:Second, in what regard would you call the portrayal of Alfredo Yu or Thomas Theisman in Book #2, The Honor of the Queen, "black and white"?

The Masadans, sure, but they are clearly identified as a psychotic, sociopathic society from the beginning, and they are not the only opponents.

Furthermore, one can actually argue strongly that within their own belief system, and especially in the case of some of the agents on Grayson, most of them were attempting to act righteously.

Finally, let us not forget that, initially, HOWARD CLINKSCALES could be viewed as some of Honor's "opposition" in that story (although it must be granted that he was always the "honorable opposition".)

I'd call it a strawman arguments. As I said:' I was strictly speaking about Honor interaction with her adversaries(not just the "Peeps"), in the first couple of books. Where everyone who disagree with Honor ultimate truth is railroaded and portrayed in black&white manner e.g. as an idiot, with no redeeming qualities and or infantile arguments. It also leads to unrealistic situation that makes no sense other than making Honor to be even more AWESOME.'

Neither of your example was Honor adversaries per se. They were used as plot device to highlight Masadans being the bad guys, and the later shared common ground with with Honor.

Since most of the story is told through Honor POV, I find the experience of being in the head of our super duper best at everything, Moral guide, Mary Sue, Honor Godlike herington, to be daunting and unbelievable, and to me was flashback to my youth days with young adults Fantasy books. Eamples:

Our forty(?) old captain who doesn't seem to had any meaningful relationship or friends outside her parents, admiral the father figure, and her Cat. Who has anger issues and keep distance from her subordinates, magically have intimate knowledge of her subordinates, who all end up taking to her.. amazing character

She is best at tactics, history, way above average in math(its uni course), amazing in melee combat (on par with marines), super grasp of ground operations (despite no experience, and have to explaining it to people with experience whose job it is).... Basicly super duper strong, smart and good at everything she ever touched. (like later use of Colt 45 or sword fighting training ?!??!)

Furthermore our captain who has no experience in politics/blackmail turned the head of star conglomerate (a self made man, who is no doubtfully expert at highstake diplomacy, blackmail and not purtured by his company illicit dealings) into big eyed schoolgirl murmuring "you are insane". While she is applauded for being amazing at highstake diplomacy, after doing nothing but sit and listen to the the Grayson basically cry ~"shut up and take our money"

As for Honor so called "personal inadequacies" they only manifest in situation in which Honor loss of control only gain her everyone approval and respect e.g. when fleet officer Honor almost brawl beat a civilian superior, after he ordered a different course of action then she desired. Which is ok, because our economist is a black&white adversary hence douchebag with no redeemable qualities.

I also loved how the economist was slammed for his one liner slongans at the military, even though Honor have been leveling the same at the military; Slammed for his ill educated assumption about local hull specifications, even though fleet captain Honor showed the sme in regard to loca drive capabilities; and most of all slammed for the silly notion of bridging religious\cultural differences between the locals, even though it took Honor&admiral only 2 days of infantile diplomacy, guilt trips and heart to heart to do exactly that. Grayson world where view on the matter religious, social and law wise are worse than our medieval Europe counterpart, because there it endured the information age! Never the less the Grayson elite took action, which is as likely as real world saudis populace accepting their royal family releasing a homosexual porn movie of themslef.. Also of course the only opposition(and heir) turned to be a traitor, bad guy from the irredeemable douchebags of Massada...

Rule #1, if you in the good guys dream team, you are moderate, otherwise you are backward douchbag. yea!

lyonheart wrote:As for Mor, he doesn't seem to have read all the books or studied the series to demonstrate that he knows what he's talking about, but I don't think he's trolling. Yet.

Seems? I outright stated that my observation is based on the first couple of books and limited to them. I hope you are not suggesting that in order to enjoy the first books I have to read and study all of the them.

I disagree with you on several points Mor. Sorry for the long post, but please comment back on anything you have reason to disagree with in my post.

First of all, I'm a teenager who's been into the honorverse books for 4-5 years, but all the other people I know (save one) who are Honorverse fans are not teenagers. One of the most avid fans I knew was one of the most intelligent people I know, a history teacher who was part of the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum and won several Boettcher Teacher Recognition Awards. It seems to me that people like that are far more common than teenagers among the fan base-despite all the examples people have given and the poll, you say that only teenagers would enjoy it, without anything to back that up.

Now, for the actual literary parts. One, I disagree that Theisman and Yu are plot devices. Yu killed Courvosier, and devastated the Grayson navy, and theisman killed many manticoran sailors. Yes, they shared common ground with Honor, but that supports our argument not yours. We are saying that there are good traits in some bad guys, which removes that black and white aspect. You can't say that just because they shared common ground with honor, they aren't bad guys. By that definition, yes, it is black and white, but only because you are sorting it by good and bad morals not by actual affiliation in the books or their actions.

Second, Honor is not "amazing at high stakes diplomacy." She is never portrayed as being so. Instead, she circumvents the system openly. That is not a tactic that diplomats employ if they want to preserve friendly relations, and it doesn't really characterize high stakes diplomacy in the Honorverse or in the real world. Sure, there is skulduggery, but people pretend to play by the rules. Honor felt that she had no choice but to go around the system due to the imminent Masadan threat and her lack of time to appeal to higher authority or find another way around the dilemma. She set herself up to take the fall because she felt it was necessary to do the right thing.

Third, Honor isn't portrayed as having a "super grasp of ground operations." The only area where ground operations are present is in OBS, and you'll notice that she left almost the entirety of the operational planning to her experts on it, and she never tried to override them in that, or the actual conduction of ground ops, instead, she gave them what feedback she could from a fleet perspective and what she wanted to do with Fearless.

Fourth, the point about Honor's meaningful relationships. To begin with, the first two books aren't a great introduction to that, because both are about her postings to areas far from her home/social circle. Also, I think you've read about her relationship with Michelle Henke, which seems meaningful. On the other hand, we don't see a whole bunch of these relationships throughout the books, which is a direct result of how MWW characterizes Honor. She is very devoted to the Navy, she has been burned several times in social situations (think Academy) and her job doesn't have a whole lot of leeway for socializing with people not in the navy. People in the navy, however, do have meaningful relationships with Honor. She knows a lot about her subordinates because she goes to the trouble of finding out about them, and she doesn't seem aloof to me. The only time I think you could see that is in OBS, but she still is working with various officers, and she has them to dinner regularly, and earns their respect for her.

As for personal inadequacies, how about in Blackbird base, where she goes to execute the commander? How about her fleeing from the confrontation with the sexist Graysons? How about her confrontations with Young (especially in the academy-like not telling the truth about it to the commandant)? How about her impatience, or anger, or impulsiveness? I think you are missing a lot of Honor's character. Yes, she is amazing, and that is why she is successful. This series isn't about your run-of-the-mill captain, but Honor does have flaws and does make mistakes.

Finally, I think you are misunderstanding her actions on Grayson. She never bridges those religious/cultural differences. I don't know where you could see this. The way she gains the support of the Graysons is by SAVING THEIR ENTIRE PLANET. That seems like something they might accept her for. Still, many don't, so I don't think that she reverses Houseman's platitudes about getting along and finding common ground. Again, she goes around the system, instead of finding a way to work with the system or even change the system. Also, the "Grayson elite" (I think you are referencing Mayhew) used to be the dominant political power, and has been forced to the side, not willingly dropped that power. Benjamin, who by all accounts is no average person either, seized the opportunity he was given to regain that influence.

I don't suggest that you have to read all the books to enjoy the first ones, but I do think that you are misinterpreting them. Please give me feedback if you disagree: I love discussing things like this.