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What about DN(P)s for the GA?

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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by Tenshinai   » Sun Sep 14, 2014 12:30 pm

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This is a really bad handwavium.


Of course it is.

That does not however make the generalisation of the analysis less true.

From this we see that RMN is already NOT building as large of an SD hull as they COULD if they were willing to limit the acceleration of their hulls. So, lets not go too deep into hubris here. Manticore is already making the REAL choice of #hulls compared to maximum destruction power.


That´s not really true. They haven´t really had the time to figure out where the "next step" should be, how much of a reduction in acceleration is acceptable to get more combat power per tonnage, so far they have only come far enough on that road to get the new extra large cruisers and battlecruisers.

Give them a year or two without someone breathing down their necks and there will very likely appear a new SD that is a big chunk larger than the current ones.

Designing a completely new weightclass that has NEVER been done before, it´s not a quick and easy thing to do.

Look at real world navies in the early to mid 20th century in comparison, a time during which tonnages jumped a lot, there are some really, REALLY, bad designs to be found there, because they were not really sure how to use the larger size properly.

The correct analysis would be, what sized hull can carry the necessary offensive equipment, active defenses, passive defenses(armor schemes for capital MK-23 missiles), and ECM?

:shock:

Are you serious? No, no, NO!!!

That´s what you do if you want useless, overcrewed and expensive abominations.

The above completely ignores crew requirements, the ability to load up on armour(the BIG reason why SDs survive better than smaller ships), salvo sizes and more...

And for wallers, numbers are effectively irrelevant as long as you can deploy them in at least squadron size.
Building smaller than you can when you´re already building many dozens would just be foolish.

Building small when you have a lack of crew and especially officers? Madness and folly.

Offensive missile loadout is approximately 25% of the hull volume.


It varies. That´s one of the things with building bigger, you will be able to increase the weaponload % if you wish. Because, among other things, total crew per tonnage is smaller, sensors and ECM per tonnage is also smaller. Needed stuff like boatbays and pinnaces loadout takes up less of the total.

And so on. The smaller you make the ship, the greater % of it will be taken up by all those things that does NOT scale down with a size reduction.

For light units, that is a penalty you have to accept because light units main requirement is numbers, that it exist and is operational.

For wallers, maximum combat power is the only thing that matters once you´re building at least squadron size.

Total pod #'s is the single largest determining factor in ship total tonnage.


Maybe. But it may not remain that.

Due to nature of Apollo FTL, no true viable defense


Sure there is. If for example you added 2Mt of armour and counter measures, that would drastically increase survivability.

Maybe not as maybe one just needs twice as strong sidewalls as this is the MAIN armor.


It´s the main armour for NON-wallers yes, but armour has always been stated as an important part of why wallers can survive hits that would shred other ships.

Anyways, lots of unknowns and never will be known, so throwing a blowhard number of 25% more effective with no framework is laughable.


Not really no. It´s a guesstimate based on known facts. And it´s not meant to be a hard or precise number.
It was meant as a way to compare, if you build smaller enough ships to get an extra 10% greater numbers of wallers, how much would the difference in combat power be.
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by Relax   » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:13 am

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Tenshinai wrote:
Anyways, lots of unknowns and never will be known, so throwing a blowhard number of 25% more effective with no framework is laughable.


Not really no. It´s a guesstimate based on known facts. And it´s not meant to be a hard or precise number.
It was meant as a way to compare, if you build smaller enough ships to get an extra 10% greater numbers of wallers, how much would the difference in combat power be.


I'll answer for him and point out the obvious.

10% more control links defensively
10% more offensively.
10% more Keyholes ECM etc
7% more active wallers to be in more than one place.
3% in for refurb.
10% more redundancy.

It takes same number of hits to destroy a DN as an SD. They have the EXACT SAME SIDEWALLS/ARMOR. Only real difference is combat endurance.

*** With 10km wide wedges for a Missile, hull length in regards to number of CM tubes is meaningless as a restriction for the number of tubes. ***

Downside? 10% more crew needed. 10% more maintenance.

PS. HV ships main armor is their sidewall, not passive. Thus, the add "2Mton of armor" is, uh...

PPS. IF they wanted to build "as large as they could" they would shove a hyper generator into their 16M ton forts and call it a day. Therefore your point about they build as large as they can is already hogwash. Their SD's are already calculated for #units/$$$/combat power.

PPPS. With only 3 books left to go in the series, no new designs will be seen other than maybe a new Havenite BC or some such or we see an Avalon class etc. Who knows, maybe Manticore will get some "brilliant" insight from Shannon Foraker on how to build a power cord for their pods...

Ah, shooting the proverbial breeze ;)

What is better than shooting the breeze? :D

Hmmm. What will we read after MWW is done with HV? :cry: Sorry, can't stand safehold. :) Guess will just have to put up with the juvenile John Ringo Zombi Apocalypse stuff. Quite humorous actually. ;)
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by Dafmeister   » Mon Sep 15, 2014 5:42 am

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Sorry, but no. It takes more hits to kill a superdreadnaught than a dreadnaught (unless you hit a reactor, in which you can kill any ship with one hit). Manticore didn't stop building dreadnaughts once the war budget kicked in just for the fun of it, they did it because SDs were better ships.
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by Relax   » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:24 am

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Dafmeister wrote:Sorry, but no. It takes more hits to kill a superdreadnaught than a dreadnaught


Sorry, but no. DN's have same sidewalls and armor as SD's. It is why they are even viable to start with.
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by Dafmeister   » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:47 am

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Relax wrote:
Dafmeister wrote:Sorry, but no. It takes more hits to kill a superdreadnaught than a dreadnaught


Sorry, but no. DN's have same sidewalls and armor as SD's. It is why they are even viable to start with.


They may have the same sidewall generators but SDs have greater redundancy. SD's are also bigger - that means they have more armour, more cofferdamming and more subdivision simply because they have more space to put that all into.

If DNs were as durable as SDs, then every major navy in the galaxy has screwed up by moving to SDs. There are only two navies we know of who have built significant numbers of DNs in the last couple of decades:

1) The RMN before the outbreak of war, because their peacetime budgets (even with Michael and Elizabeth's help) couldn't stretch to building enough SDs to give them the required number of hulls.

2) The PN in the later stages of the war, when their losses were bad enough that the saving of a couple of months on getting a new waller into service actually made a difference.

Neither of them has made a DN by choice in a generation. everytime they've laid one down, they've consciously opted to compromise on combat capability for budgetary reasons of budget, in terms of saving either money or time.
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:13 pm

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Relax wrote:
Dafmeister wrote:Sorry, but no. It takes more hits to kill a superdreadnaught than a dreadnaught


Sorry, but no. DN's have same sidewalls and armor as SD's. It is why they are even viable to start with.


Textev?
.
.
.
Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by Roguevictory   » Mon Sep 15, 2014 4:02 pm

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Relax wrote:
Dafmeister wrote:Sorry, but no. It takes more hits to kill a superdreadnaught than a dreadnaught


Sorry, but no. DN's have same sidewalls and armor as SD's. It is why they are even viable to start with.



The same armor type probably but I seriously doubt they have the armor thickness. And even if they do the SD has more active defenses like Point Defense Clusters or Counter-Missile tubes so getting the hits needed to kill it would take more missiles.

And I doubt thy have the same number and grade of Sidewall Generators.
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Sep 15, 2014 6:53 pm

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Hi RogueVictory,

The textev we do have from the peep war including the appendix in tSVW puts the biggest DN's [dreadnoughts] on both sides were around 79-80% of the mass of their biggest SD's [super-dreadnoughts], thus SD's the biggest SD's were 25% more massive if not longer with more weapons decks [or 5 versus 4 for a DN].

The growth in RMN ships provoked growth in peep ships, as the Mars and Warlord classes proved, yet the even the FF increased the mass of its Gladiator CA's to where they match the Saganami-B's 425,000 tons, though most FF CA's are less than 286 KT, ie almost a 50% increase above that CA average.

OTOH, the BF is apparently quite satisfied with the Scientist/Vega class SD's because we have no textev for anything newer, ever though they mass barely more than the last RMN DN class [6.8 vs 6.75]; remember though the RMN's then SD's averaged only 7.01 MT even with the 8.5 MT's.

Almost all pre first Haven war SD's are now gone so what's left [~237] are probably closer to 8 MT in mass and thus much more than 25% superior to the BF's, before pods, ECM, experienced crews, etc are added to the mix.

L


Roguevictory wrote:
Relax wrote:*quote="Dafmeister"*Sorry, but no. It takes more hits to kill a superdreadnaught than a dreadnaught *quote*

Sorry, but no. DN's have same sidewalls and armor as SD's. It is why they are even viable to start with.



The same armor type probably but I seriously doubt they have the armor thickness. And even if they do the SD has more active defenses like Point Defense Clusters or Counter-Missile tubes so getting the hits needed to kill it would take more missiles.

And I doubt thy have the same number and grade of Sidewall Generators.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by Relax   » Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:28 pm

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It should be noted that RMN DN's cut the number of missile tubes, etc while keeping the same offensive/defensive engagement endurance as their SD brethren. This is their main difference in tonnage. In House of Steel one can easily see a direct linear relationship between the Gryphon/Sphinx(near identical) Class and their contempory DN class the Bellerephron(butchered SP) DN class. If one were willing to sacrifice offensive/defensive engagement endurance, the Bellerephon DN class would have had the exact same number of missile tubes, Grasers, PDLC's as their SD brethren.

At this time, the alpha strike via pods is not a viable delineating factor in ship design. Therefore total number of control links, gunsmoke issues for counter missile fire is not a driving concern for total number of hulls.

PS. Will gladly reread SVW again for DN comparisons. Haven't read that book in a long time. :D

PPS. Yes, an SD will be slightly more survivable than a DN, it has more ship systems to blow away and keep fighting as the missiles attacking said ship are guessing pretty much anyways. Of course an SD will get hit more often because it is bigger as well. They both have the same sidewalls(main armor) and cofferdaming etc passive armor. If the SD/DN did not, then the DN would not be a capital ship, it would be a BB. There is a very simple reason they added the word "super" to the front of the word dreadnaught instead of a whole new name class. Who knows, when Manticore makes their new SD class at 11M tons to withstand MK-23G missile laser heads, maybe they call it the SUPER DUPER Dreadnaught class.(SDDN)
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Re: What about DN(P)s for the GA?
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:56 pm

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Hi Relax,

Given the RMN distinguished between DN's and SD's that were both in the 6-7 MT range indicates to me there are differences in construction and armoring etc that set the two types apart.

I wonder that the SD's margin of apparent size etc is visually that much greater than a DN, since the cube root of a 25% increase in volume/mass is just over 7.7% in each dimension, not that the 25% would necessarily be used exactly that way, though it's wedge would roughly be around 25% greater.

Not just tSVW, but also reread FIE, where Hamish's and the RMN's losses are detailed very early, the destroyed DN's loss rate being far above any projected 25% increase above the SD losses, even if the DN's had exactly the same defenses, which apparently they can't by definition.

In any mixed wall of battle the DN's are going to be the obvious weak links, another reason the RMN stopped building them when they began their war production.

During the Korean war, the Chinese would scout the UN lines, a heavy artillery response indicated an American unit, a rather smaller response indicated a South Korean unit; which would you attack?

L


Relax wrote:It should be noted that RMN DN's cut the number of missile tubes, etc while keeping the same offensive/defensive engagement endurance as their SD brethren. This is their main difference in tonnage. In House of Steel one can easily see a direct linear relationship between the Gryphon/Sphinx(near identical) Class and their contempory DN class the Bellerephron(butchered SP) DN class. If one were willing to sacrifice offensive/defensive engagement endurance, the Bellerephon DN class would have had the exact same number of missile tubes, Grasers, PDLC's as their SD brethren.

At this time, the alpha strike via pods is not a viable delineating factor in ship design. Therefore total number of control links, gunsmoke issues for counter missile fire is not a driving concern for total number of hulls.

PS. Will gladly reread SVW again for DN comparisons. Haven't read that book in a long time. :D

PPS. Yes, an SD will be slightly more survivable than a DN, it has more ship systems to blow away and keep fighting as the missiles attacking said ship are guessing pretty much anyways. Of course an SD will get hit more often because it is bigger as well. They both have the same sidewalls(main armor) and cofferdaming etc passive armor. If the SD/DN did not, then the DN would not be a capital ship, it would be a BB. There is a very simple reason they added the word "super" to the front of the word dreadnaught instead of a whole new name class. Who knows, when Manticore makes their new SD class at 11M tons to withstand MK-23G missile laser heads, maybe they call it the SUPER DUPER Dreadnaught class.(SDDN)
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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