Apollo, inspired by the KIROV and SS-N-19 antiship missile?

Weird Harold wrote:I didn't say it would take a LOT of space, just that encryption keys for drones would take space that could be used for other things. You young whippersnappers don't think in terms of efficient use of memory like us old 8-bit programmers.

I don't think Manticore is running its most advanced attack missiles using 1980's tech.

(Also, securing your attack missiles against man-in-the-middle attacks should be a high enough priority to justify allocating whatever space and processing power is required to do it)

The E wrote:I don't think Manticore is running its most advanced attack missiles using 1980's tech.

Nope, they're probably running the end result of object oriented programming evolution with bloated objects that are still built around a core of 90s code. They NEED exabytes of memory for their bloated code.

The finest product of 200 years waterfall development, in fortran.

Lord Skimper wrote:So, if one builds a FTL jammer, over an area, or redirection of FTL. Apollo becomes useless against such and stealth of wedge detection, individual wedges goes way up.

Wow I'm confused too, I don't know what the heck I was trying to say. I'm thinking it might have been an android auto correction.

The first part is easy, if one were to make an FTL jammer, either jamming an area with FTL noise, or by redirecting the FTL signal, one presumes FTL as a grav pulse can be jammed by flooding the area with signals. Much like radio or radar jamming. Presumably Honorverse FTL is not as secure as entanglement. Or the FTL grav pulse could be reflected or received, intercepted and redirected either through modification or repeated applications.

Flooding an area with FTL or grav signals may also cause a wedge to disappear into the back ground noise. FTL grav noise / jamming.

Weird Harold wrote:Nope, they're probably running the end result of object oriented programming evolution with bloated objects that are still built around a core of 90s code. They NEED exabytes of memory for their bloated code.

That's the thing though, RFC has wisely chosen not to get into detail regarding how the capabilities of Honorverse computers compare to present-day hardware. Claims such as "if you do this, you are using up space that could be used for attack profiles" is silly when we do not know a) how much space is available, b) how much of it is used, c) how much of it has to be used because of irreducable complexities in the design.

Lord Skimper wrote:The first part is easy, if one were to make an FTL jammer, either jamming an area with FTL noise, or by redirecting the FTL signal, one presumes FTL as a grav pulse can be jammed by flooding the area with signals.

Unproven assumption. The only cases where we've seen an FTL signal being jammed is when a ship is hiding in the shadow of another ship's wedge; even then, every time such a maneuver was used, both ships had to be in close physical proximity for it to work.

Much like radio or radar jamming. Presumably Honorverse FTL is not as secure as entanglement.

Entanglement? You mean quantum entanglement communication? That thing that can't work? (QEC has been a staple of SF for some time, but it just doesn't work in reality due to the simple matter of there being no way to nondestructively retrieve or send information through an entanglement channel)

Or the FTL grav pulse could be reflected or received, intercepted and redirected either through modification or repeated applications.

Nowhere in the entire honorverse canon is this capability, or possibility even hinted at.

Flooding an area with FTL or grav signals may also cause a wedge to disappear into the back ground noise. FTL grav noise / jamming.

Given that wedges are several orders of magnitude stronger than even the strongest grav pulse, that just isn't happening.
Also, there is no "background noise" of grav pulses to hide in. This is basically the equivalent of a submarine blasting music into the ocean to conceal itself; sure, a sonar operator might not know exactly what kind of sub you are, but he sure as hell is going to be aware of where you are.

BobG wrote:

Annachie wrote:Come onRFC, one of the first rules of weapon design has to be countering whatever you design. Surely the Manties alteady have an FTL jammer that they can signal through waiting in the wings.

Ah... What counter to nuclear weapons have we had for the last 60-odd years? Other than MAD, and I don't think that is a counter.

-- Bob G

Isn't there some base somewhere under a mountain? Actually, aren't there several nuke peoof shelters?

Not much for Joe Q, but they are a counter

More famously, though I don't think they actually got it to work, the so called Star Wars.

For RFC, well radar jamming should help vs radar guided ammunition. I also wonder how those close in support minni guns would go, though that is way way outside my area of vague familiarity.

It just strikes me tjat 10 or 20 years of using a communication system in basically a wR enviroment, the Manties should have come up with a jammer by now. Even if it's nothing but an overpowered 'static' generator.

The E wrote:That's the thing though, RFC has wisely chosen not to get into detail regarding how the capabilities of Honorverse computers compare to present-day hardware. Claims such as "if you do this, you are using up space that could be used for attack profiles" is silly when we do not know a) how much space is available, b) how much of it is used, c) how much of it has to be used because of irreducable complexities in the design.

What we do know is the Apollo control missile has "the most capable AI that could be crammed into limited space," or words to that effect. That implies that some tradeoffs in memory space and capabilities had to be made and adding any capability would require reassessing those tradeoffs.

Commentary about bloated code is a pet peeve of mine but I really don't expect wasteful use of memory to decline because available memory has expanded, and should continue to expand, faster than code has bloated. I just learned computers when "code optimization" wasn't a historical trivia answer but a hard necessity.

Annachie wrote:Isn't there some base somewhere under a mountain? Actually, aren't there several nuke peoof shelters?

Not much for Joe Q, but they are a counter

No, they're not. They are a damage mitigation measure (just like the armor on a battleship reduces the damage an incoming shell inflicts, but does nothing to prevent such damage).

Underground bunkers are only effective as long as no weapon exists that can penetrate them; just like the US spent a lot of effort on getting ground penetrators to work, so did the USSR. And failing that, well, blanketing the area around the bunker's exits will be disruptive enough.

For RFC, well radar jamming should help vs radar guided ammunition. I also wonder how those close in support minni guns would go, though that is way way outside my area of vague familiarity.

Radar jamming can help against radar-guided projectiles, yes. And we've seen those jamming techniques being used in every battle in the series. But they're not guaranteed to work.

Close-in support miniguns have also been used (remember the autocannon on early Grayson ships? Or the weaponry in Call to Duty?), but they're largely ineffective vs laser heads. To intercept a missile before it can attack, a bullet would have to travel several tens of thousands of kilometers; no gun in the honorverse can deliver that kind of acceleration.

It just strikes me tjat 10 or 20 years of using a communication system in basically a wR enviroment, the Manties should have come up with a jammer by now. Even if it's nothing but an overpowered 'static' generator.

That's assuming that the physics of grav pulse communication allow jamming in the first place, of course.

Weird Harold wrote:What we do know is the Apollo control missile has "the most capable AI that could be crammed into limited space," or words to that effect. That implies that some tradeoffs in memory space and capabilities had to be made and adding any capability would require reassessing those tradeoffs.

I always read that as "we don't have that much physical space available in the missile body to put in more capable computers". Still, you gotta admit, reserving space for a couple dozen encryption profiles and the algorithms to decode/encode communications shouldn't be that hard, given how little space these things take up in current tech.

The E wrote:I always read that as "we don't have that much physical space available in the missile body to put in more capable computers". Still, you gotta admit, reserving space for a couple dozen encryption profiles and the algorithms to decode/encode communications shouldn't be that hard, given how little space these things take up in current tech.

Extrapolating from encryption keys growth rate from 8-bit computer systems to modern encryption keys -- 128 or 256 bytes, not bits, IIRC -- two or three thousand more years could inflate them to a couple of Gigabytes.

Still, back to the original point, making it possible for Drones and ACMs to communicate directly is a solution in search of a problem.

Whatever the geometry, feeding data back to a starship's computers from an entire Drone Shell -- plus LACs, other task-force ships' sensors, and feedback from an entire salvo of ACMs -- is going to give a better tactical picture than any set of sensors alone can provide. If a few bytes of data can enable cross-talk with nearby drones, the ACM probably already does it. It likely takes more than a few bytes of storage -- additional comm lasers/receivers, for example. In that case, the ACM probably doesn't communicate directly with Drones.

Weird Harold wrote:

The E wrote:I don't think Manticore is running its most advanced attack missiles using 1980's tech.

Nope, they're probably running the end result of object oriented programming evolution with bloated objects that are still built around a core of 90s code. They NEED exabytes of memory for their bloated code.

Things change. Sometimes they don't change fast enough, at least according to some people's definition of fast. At times like that, I remember the Prayer for Patience[1], and the Honorverse Tech Mantra[2].

[1] Dear Lord, please give me patience. I need it RIGHT NOW!

[2] 2000 years. Take a deep breath, let it out, repeat once, take another deep breath, let it out, repeat for 15 minutes. Now, isn't everything clearer?