Young and Basilisk station

Yup, all the previous peep conquests at most had only a thin tissue of lies. Why change when it has worked for them so far?

And while I note how this could be used to go after Manticore home system, the fact that the peeps only risked 3 BatRons in it suggests that they were not planning anything that ambitious.

Well, of course they were not planing anything overt against Manticore at that time.
It was stated quite clearly in the text that their goal at that time was to circumvent SKM and go after the far softer target of Silesian Confederacy. And, incidentaly position themselves for later offensives against either Andies or Manties.

yannosh wrote:Well, of course they were not planing anything overt against Manticore at that time.
It was stated quite clearly in the text that their goal at that time was to circumvent SKM and go after the far softer target of Silesian Confederacy. And, incidentaly position themselves for later offensives against either Andies or Manties.

No, their goal was very explicitly Manticore. They just thought that they could take a staged approach there, take away Basilisk (and the rather lucrative Basilisk terminus) in preparation for a later strike against Manticore proper.

Zakharra wrote:I'm still trying to figure out how anyone could conceivably think that the Medusans, a Bronze Age/early Iron Age people if I remember right' could have ever posed a threat to orbiting starships. The PRH excuse to sweep in and take over the system always came across as being as flimsy as wet toilet paper. There is literally no way the Medusans could ever threaten anything in orbit. So the Peep ship that 'fled in a panic' would have made the ship captain and crew more of a laughing stock rather than fleeing in a true panic. No one should have ever taken it seriously, and any oncoming Peep force would likely have been curb stomped into the next millennium if the Peeps had tried to use the excuse of the Medusans as a threat as a reason/excuse for them to take over the system.

They were not a threat to the space ships. They were a threat to the trade delegations from dozens of independent star systems. If those trade delegations were suddenly under attack, they would have welcomed any forces which came in to clean things up. The plan was that all those traders would lose confidence in Manticore's handling of the planet, and that they would support the protections that Haven was providing. Haven may have set up some individuals to come to their support, or Haven may have intended to buy that support after the fact. Haven would have promised greater trade access to Basilisk, which those traders had been demanding for some time. And some would have given the support simply because Haven was clearly ready to defend the trade delegations while Manticore had been trying to keep it's fingers to itself. It would give Haven a plausible excuse for claiming that Manticore had failed in its responsibilities and de facto lost its claim to the system.

kzt wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Actually, if you want a real alternate history, in some ways the worst thing Haven could do is end up controlling a 2nd terminus and then launching a double-barreled wormhole assault. That could easily fail (pre-war simulations not withstanding) and doing so might well bring down the government in chaos; after throwing away a lot of tonnage and sailors.

No, the peeps/puppets just have a couple of ships transiting through the junction every day and look for signs of home fleet. If it suddenly isn't there one day then they go into hyper, but don't go very far... And they they come back with a bunch of friends.

This assumes that the RMN doesn't just feed all of home fleet into the wood chipper that is the WH to Medusa, because 3 BatRons and a freighter full of mines can probably destroy most of Home Fleet that way.

IIRC, the Peep squadrons used the junction to get to Medusa. Given the fact that they would have had to have routed through the junctions central nexus, Home Fleet would have known pretty quickly where the Peeps were going. Then if the Peeps were on their way to Medusa, it was quite some distance to the planet. So Home Fleet would probably been able to use the junction right behind them. I don't think they would have had time to organize an effective defense before home fleet come through.

Then too, as I recall, the Peeps weren't intending to pull the trigger on a major war at this point. What they were after was to present Manticore with a fiat accompli that would be accepted but serve as the stepping stone for a major confrontation later.

Don

Jonathan_S wrote:Actually, if you want a real alternate history, in some ways the worst thing Haven could do is end up controlling a 2nd terminus and then launching a double-barreled wormhole assault. That could easily fail (pre-war simulations not withstanding) and doing so might well bring down the government in chaos; after throwing away a lot of tonnage and sailors.

n7axw wrote:

kzt wrote:No, the peeps/puppets just have a couple of ships transiting through the junction every day and look for signs of home fleet. If it suddenly isn't there one day then they go into hyper, but don't go very far... And they they come back with a bunch of friends.

This assumes that the RMN doesn't just feed all of home fleet into the wood chipper that is the WH to Medusa, because 3 BatRons and a freighter full of mines can probably destroy most of Home Fleet that way.

IIRC, the Peep squadrons used the junction to get to Medusa. Given the fact that they would have had to have routed through the junctions central nexus, Home Fleet would have known pretty quickly where the Peeps were going. Then if the Peeps were on their way to Medusa, it was quite some distance to the planet. So Home Fleet would probably been able to use the junction right behind them. I don't think they would have had time to organize an effective defense before home fleet come through.

Then too, as I recall, the Peeps weren't intending to pull the trigger on a major war at this point. What they were after was to present Manticore with a fiat accompli that would be accepted but serve as the stepping stone for a major confrontation later.

Don

No, nothing in the book said the Peeps came the long way. Although it did say "Two months during which the entire Home Fleet, summoned by her desperate Case Zulu, had conducted "unscheduled war games" in Basilisk—and greeted the three Havenite battle squadrons who'd arrived on a "routine visit" six days after Captain Papadapolous's Marines and Barney Isvarian's NPA had annihilated the rifle-armed Medusan nomads."

I'm surprised Manticore would have diverted the entire Home Fleet there for 2 months. Wouldn't that leave the home system kind of bare, even with the Junction and planetary forts?


But my original speculation wasn't that the Peeps would immediately turn around an assault Manticore. I was just thinking if they had acquired a 2nd terminus attempting to exploit the pair offensively at some future point might backfire on them badly. (Though just holding Basilisk would hurt the Mantie's trade with Silesia, even if the Peeps never did anything else with the system)

quote="Jonathan_S"]
Actually, if you want a real alternate history, in some ways the worst thing Haven could do is end up controlling a 2nd terminus and then launching a double-barreled wormhole assault. That could easily fail (pre-war simulations not withstanding) and doing so might well bring down the government in chaos; after throwing away a lot of tonnage and sailors.[/quote]

n7axw wrote:

kzt wrote:No, the peeps/puppets just have a couple of ships transiting through the junction every day and look for signs of home fleet. If it suddenly isn't there one day then they go into hyper, but don't go very far... And they they come back with a bunch of friends.

This assumes that the RMN doesn't just feed all of home fleet into the wood chipper that is the WH to Medusa, because 3 BatRons and a freighter full of mines can probably destroy most of Home Fleet that way.

IIRC, the Peep squadrons used the junction to get to Medusa. Given the fact that they would have had to have routed through the junctions central nexus, Home Fleet would have known pretty quickly where the Peeps were going. Then if the Peeps were on their way to Medusa, it was quite some distance to the planet. So Home Fleet would probably been able to use the junction right behind them. I don't think they would have had time to organize an effective defense before home fleet come through.

Then too, as I recall, the Peeps weren't intending to pull the trigger on a major war at this point. What they were after was to present Manticore with a fiat accompli that would be accepted but serve as the stepping stone for a major confrontation later.

Don

No, nothing in the book said the Peeps came the long way. Although it did say "Two months during which the entire Home Fleet, summoned by her desperate Case Zulu, had conducted "unscheduled war games" in Basilisk—and greeted the three Havenite battle squadrons who'd arrived on a "routine visit" six days after Captain Papadapolous's Marines and Barney Isvarian's NPA had annihilated the rifle-armed Medusan nomads."

I'm surprised Manticore would have diverted the entire Home Fleet there for 2 months. Wouldn't that leave the home system kind of bare, even with the Junction and planetary forts?


But my original speculation wasn't that the Peeps would immediately turn around an assault Manticore. I was just thinking if they had acquired a 2nd terminus attempting to exploit the pair offensively at some future point might backfire on them badly. (Though just holding Basilisk would hurt the Mantie's trade with Silesia, even if the Peeps never did anything else with the system)[/quote]
They probably moved Second Fleet from Manticore B to cover Manticore A

Two points.

The Peeps did indeed travel from the Republic to Basilisk in hyper. They did not use the Junction to get there. And two months on station is not that long when you consider that it would take nearly that long to get to Haven to tell someone Home Fleet had moved.

If the Peeps had successfully taken the terminus, the MMM would simply have reverted to the old route: Manticore to Gregor to Silesia to Gregor to Manticore.

KNick wrote:Two points.

The Peeps did indeed travel from the Republic to Basilisk in hyper. They did not use the Junction to get there. And two months on station is not that long when you consider that it would take nearly that long to get to Haven to tell someone Home Fleet had moved.

If the Peeps had successfully taken the terminus, the MMM would simply have reverted to the old route: Manticore to Gregor to Silesia to Gregor to Manticore.

You are right. I went and looked it up. They came in hyper rather than through the junction. Sirrus took off to meet the Peep fleet but not toward the jumction, but rather toward the hyper limit.

You are also right about what the routing from Manticore to Silesia would have been without the terminus. My point is that I don't think Manticore would have allowed the Peeps to keep it without a fight even if they would have had to go through hyper to get there. When RMN task force showd up, the Peeps would either have had to back off or the war would have started right there.

Don

KNick wrote:If the Peeps had successfully taken the terminus, the MMM would simply have reverted to the old route: Manticore to Gregor to Silesia to Gregor to Manticore.

Sure. I never meant to say that being unable to use the Basilisk terminus would kill Manticoran trade to Silesia.

But having to revert back to that route, rather than completing the trade triangle, either means less systems visited or longer routes. They're going to have less convenient access to the worlds on the Basilisk edge of the Cluster. And that less efficient trade route would hurt Mantie trade; compared to what it was making with the more efficient route.