Royal (Imperial) Manticore Army

Lord Skimper wrote:
...If you want Army Action John Scalzi has you covered.

Been there, done that!!
Like a flashbacck to I think '59-60, reading Starship Trooper.

Well I've seen a lot of comments here about the fact that the RMA is really little more than a garrisoning force. After all, you can always drop rocks on the offending planet if you control the orbitals and the "bad guys" won't give up.

All of that is true in the same way that Nuclear Weapons made Armies and Navies of the late 20th Century obsolete.

The theory is exactly the same, you have a weapon of mass destruction that will devastate the enemy if they resist. The problem is, are you willing to use it?

There's lots of downsides to dropping rocks on enemy planets, first and foremost of these is that if you do it, the enemy is likely to return the favor sometime in the future. There's also the scenes of utter devastation being visited on significant populations centers killing untold numbers of civilians in one fell swoop.

So you take the orbitals of a planetary system and you issue your surrender order and they refuse. Are you really going to devastate the planet? Is that going to be an acceptable response to the other star nations and your own people?

Just like we found out that nuclear weapons were not the end all be all of warfare, just as we discovered that we weren't willing to use the nuclear option when other options existed, it's highly likely that dealing with a recalcitrant enemy population would be a much more difficult thorn to deal with than simply dropping some c-fractional rock on them. And that is where the RMA could represent an alternative approach.

So far that hasn't happened yet. But it's certainly something that could happen.

What makes you think that compelling a surrender from orbit would result in "devastating the planet"? As Terekhov so ably demonstrated, you can drop a very precise KEW on any target you want with minimal collateral damage.

Furthermore, as mentioned by David in several posts, the common practice of warfare between civilized nations is that once the attackers control the orbitals, the planet surrenders. Resisting beyond that point is meaningless unless you're deliberately trying to inflate the body count.

Now, there could well be a few occasions where one is dealing with some truly maniacal personality who refuses to surrender even when the situation is hopeless, and the attacker chooses not to inflict casualties from bombardment. Alternatively, one is trying to attack a site which makes bombardment undesirable (for example, capturing a hardened R&D facility on a moon somewhere). In which case, yeah, you probably would call up the Army and stage an assault. But unless there aren't any non-combatants around, or were evacuated beforehand, any opposed invasion is likely going to cause casualties at least as bad as a bombardment would. That being the case, you go right back to putting orbital bombardment back on the table in order to avoid losses to your own troops. There's just no point in trying to resist if you lost the high ground.

The "the common practice of warfare between civilized nations ". Always an interesting phrase when we're talking about mass collateral damage.

And who is going to "police" the Eridani Edict when Manticore goes to war with the Sollies?

Should be an interesting time to be in the RMA.

Jaxon06 wrote:And who is going to "police" the Eridani Edict when Manticore goes to war with the Sollies?

Non-issue. Neither side has the slightest interest in violating it, and in fact both the SLN and RMN are nearly entirely commanded and crewed by people who would mutiny if given such orders (yes, even all but the most cynical Sollies we've seen). And the PNE/MAlign attempted strike on Torch notwithstanding, false flag EE violations are really, really difficult to set up.

It's perfectly practical to shoot down a KEW if you actually have forces with any sort of anti-air capability.

Duckk wrote:What makes you think that compelling a surrender from orbit would result in "devastating the planet"? As Terekhov so ably demonstrated, you can drop a very precise KEW on any target you want with minimal collateral damage.

Furthermore, as mentioned by David in several posts, the common practice of warfare between civilized nations is that once the attackers control the orbitals, the planet surrenders. Resisting beyond that point is meaningless unless you're deliberately trying to inflate the body count.

Now, there could well be a few occasions where one is dealing with some truly maniacal personality who refuses to surrender even when the situation is hopeless, and the attacker chooses not to inflict casualties from bombardment. Alternatively, one is trying to attack a site which makes bombardment undesirable (for example, capturing a hardened R&D facility on a moon somewhere). In which case, yeah, you probably would call up the Army and stage an assault. But unless there aren't any non-combatants around, or were evacuated beforehand, any opposed invasion is likely going to cause casualties at least as bad as a bombardment would. That being the case, you go right back to putting orbital bombardment back on the table in order to avoid losses to your own troops. There's just no point in trying to resist if you lost the high ground.

Tell that to Masada and the planets in the Silesia systems. The RMA and RMMC is very busy on those worlds. There's no need for large naval forces there, but those worlds aren't peaceful and it looks like they are somewhat restive, resulting in a very busy Manticore Army and Marine Corp. The fact that the RM Army and Marines need to expand means there is a need for ground forces. It's not just enough to hold the high orbitals, but you also need boots on the ground to enforce your directives, otherwise the world will not be yours once the navy leaves the system. A ground element can ensure the system stays yours in the end.

Zakharra wrote:

Duckk wrote:What makes you think that compelling a surrender from orbit would result in "devastating the planet"? As Terekhov so ably demonstrated, you can drop a very precise KEW on any target you want with minimal collateral damage.

Furthermore, as mentioned by David in several posts, the common practice of warfare between civilized nations is that once the attackers control the orbitals, the planet surrenders. Resisting beyond that point is meaningless unless you're deliberately trying to inflate the body count.

Now, there could well be a few occasions where one is dealing with some truly maniacal personality who refuses to surrender even when the situation is hopeless, and the attacker chooses not to inflict casualties from bombardment. Alternatively, one is trying to attack a site which makes bombardment undesirable (for example, capturing a hardened R&D facility on a moon somewhere). In which case, yeah, you probably would call up the Army and stage an assault. But unless there aren't any non-combatants around, or were evacuated beforehand, any opposed invasion is likely going to cause casualties at least as bad as a bombardment would. That being the case, you go right back to putting orbital bombardment back on the table in order to avoid losses to your own troops. There's just no point in trying to resist if you lost the high ground.

Tell that to Masada and the planets in the Silesia systems. The RMA and RMMC is very busy on those worlds. There's no need for large naval forces there, but those worlds aren't peaceful and it looks like they are somewhat restive, resulting in a very busy Manticore Army and Marine Corp. The fact that the RM Army and Marines need to expand means there is a need for ground forces. It's not just enough to hold the high orbitals, but you also need boots on the ground to enforce your directives, otherwise the world will not be yours once the navy leaves the system. A ground element can ensure the system stays yours in the end.

There are indeed boots on the ground on Masada. But I was under the impression that in Silesia, the RMN was primarily putting an end to piracy and smuggling as well as curbing liberation movements. Otherwise I have the impression that local governance is being left in place unless they are caught in wrong doing. I think Masada is the only outright conquest. In Silesa Andermani and Manticore simply buys out the central government which seems a bit different. How many boots are on the ground in Silesia, I'm not sure.

Don

Zakharra wrote:

Duckk wrote:...the common practice of warfare between civilized nations is that once the attackers control the orbitals, the planet surrenders....quote]


Tell that to Masada ...

Duckk is talking about civilized planets.

n7axw wrote:

Zakharra wrote:
Tell that to Masada and the planets in the Silesia systems. The RMA and RMMC is very busy on those worlds. There's no need for large naval forces there, but those worlds aren't peaceful and it looks like they are somewhat restive, resulting in a very busy Manticore Army and Marine Corp. The fact that the RM Army and Marines need to expand means there is a need for ground forces. It's not just enough to hold the high orbitals, but you also need boots on the ground to enforce your directives, otherwise the world will not be yours once the navy leaves the system. A ground element can ensure the system stays yours in the end.

There are indeed boots on the ground on Masada. But I was under the impression that in Silesia, the RMN was primarily putting an end to piracy and smuggling as well as curbing liberation movements. Otherwise I have the impression that local governance is being left in place unless they are caught in wrong doing. I think Masada is the only outright conquest. In Silesa Andermani and Manticore simply buys out the central government which seems a bit different. How many boots are on the ground in Silesia, I'm not sure.

Don

I'm sure the situation in the Silesia Confederacy area (what is it called now? since the Confederacy no longer exists?) isn't violent or anything, but it's tying up the strength of pretty much the entire Manticore Army and Marines.

Weird Harold wrote:

Zakharra wrote:...the common practice of warfare between civilized nations is that once the attackers control the orbitals, the planet surrenders....quote]


Tell that to Masada ...

Duckk is talking about civilized planets.

It doesn't take much for a world to de-civilize, or the population could be stubborn enough they won't surrender easily. An occupation could be resisted and tie up several brigades if the population was willing to take the casualties. As long as the power holding the high ground (space) doesn't just decide to say 'screw this' and use nuclear And KEW bombardments to flatten everything. Remember the SEM/GA isn't likely to do that even if they do hold the high orbitals. They are much less inclined to bombard a world that doesn't surrender even if the defending fleet is destroyed. If the population remained solid, a world could easily be a meat grinder for the GA if they aren't willing to inflict massive casualties or lay waste to entire areas/deny/destroy power plants and factories to get the population to stop resisting.

An example would be Beowulf or the Manticore system worlds, do you think they would meekly surrender and not resist SL occupation if the SL managed to occupy orbital space? I admit that the Mandarins and the higher officers in the SLN are far more likely to use bombardment to pacify the worlds, the chances of the GA/Manticore doing so is much lower. They seem more likely to be content to hold the system and leave the planet to its own devices for a few decades until the population changes its mind.