Caslet.....

A pardon might be too much to hope for, but I wouldn't be surprised if Theisman arranged nice little unofficial pensions for Yu and Caslet.

I thought I misremembered events and 'corrected' myself in response to a post without going back and checking the textev. I now retract my 'correction'.

Arghhghhgh

Direwolf18 wrote:Not sure of a congressional pardon but a, "all is forgiven moment" is definitely not unreasonable. That congressional pardon would be oh so official, and no doubt turn into a political slugging match, for no other reason then the opposition sees it as an opportunity to make hay.

Not really. I suspect that Pritchart had her 'I'm back!' moment with the treaty she and Elizabeth negotiated - remember the huge margin of approval in the Havenite Senate? Or the tremendous public support on Haven for the treaty? In terms of political dynamics, that was the moment when Pritchart regained all the political capital she lost after the Battle of Manticore.

Sure, her die-hard opponents in the Havenite Congress will try and make hay out of any move to forgive Caslet and/or Yu, but public support for her at the moment is so high that they won't have much success.

(Actually, her 'I'm back!' moment kind of reminds me of Elizabeth's after the Republic launched the Second Havenite War, when the opposition in the House of Lords made like an ice cube at noon in the desert).

Besides, what everyone is forgetting here is that Haven's government/Congress CANNOT pardon Caslet. I stand by my viewpoint that there will be little public or political opposition to granting him a visitor's visa so that he can visit any surviving family in the Republic.

However, he is no longer a Havenite citizen. Legally, a government cannot pardon a citizen of another star nation. It's just not done. Firstly, because no government has the legal authority to make legal pronouncements about an individual who does not fall under its legal or political jurisdiction. And secondly, because it would be a major faux pas to interfere in the legal jurisdiction of another star nation - especially a star nation it is now allied with.

So, permission to a foreign citizen to enter the Republic, yes. But a congressional or other kind of legal pardon, most definitely no.

wetnavy wrote:Even if Pritchard and Theisman accepted him back, and the story of how he wound up on cerberus and why were public knowledge, he wouldn't be accepted by the rank and file of the navy. “We stuck it out, we survivied. You ran to the enemy.” That would be the general feeling. Navy personnel wouldn't do anything about, but that attitude would be very evident. The public would feel the same but wouldn't be constrained by the military code of conduct. So, a fight or two, maybe escalating into a group beating, if Caslett were lucky. Otherwise, a knife in a back alley somewhere. And the same would happen to Yu.

Caslet is either a Rear Admiral or higher.

Unless something goes terribly wrong, he likely has a security detail, staff and escorts when he is not on ship.

Love him, hate him or want his situation to go away, assaulting a foreign naval officer of that rank would not happen.

It is on the list of "Things that would generate a potential diplomatic incident resulting in BAD STUFF FOLLOWS HERE."

Like I said, "Caslet? Oh... The GSN officer? He's right over there. Yes, remarkably well informed about pre-coup People's Naval tactics involving light cruiser operations and such... oh, you went to the Naval Academy with him. Hey, LOOK! Old earth shrimp at the buffet! Come over, we'll get some before it's gone!"

wetnavy wrote:
Even if Pritchard and Theisman accepted him back, and the story of how he wound up on cerberus and why were public knowledge, he wouldn't be accepted by the rank and file of the navy. “We stuck it out, we survivied. You ran to the enemy.” That would be the general feeling. Navy personnel wouldn't do anything about, but that attitude would be very evident. The public would feel the same but wouldn't be constrained by the military code of conduct. So, a fight or two, maybe escalating into a group beating, if Caslett were lucky. Otherwise, a knife in a back alley somewhere. And the same would happen to Yu.

I don't think the rank and file would be as unforgiving as you think. Yes they lived with the fear of failing and being shot for it along with their families but in Caslett's case it wasn't if I go back I might be shot it was if I go back I will be shot and I don't think the average rank and file navy member is anything remotely close to liking the old regime enough to hate someone for running under those circumstances.

hanuman wrote:
SNIP

Besides, what everyone is forgetting here is that Haven's government/Congress CANNOT pardon Caslet. I stand by my viewpoint that there will be little public or political opposition to granting him a visitor's visa so that he can visit any surviving family in the Republic.

However, he is no longer a Havenite citizen. Legally, a government cannot pardon a citizen of another star nation. It's just not done. Firstly, because no government has the legal authority to make legal pronouncements about an individual who does not fall under its legal or political jurisdiction. And secondly, because it would be a major faux pas to interfere in the legal jurisdiction of another star nation - especially a star nation it is now allied with.

Not so.

A nation can, indeed, pardon a citizen of another nation so long as the pardon is for crimes committed (or alleged to have been committed) against the nation issuing the pardon. The US President, for example, could not issue a pardon to a British citizen accused of or convicted of crimes against Great Britain but could pardon a British citizen accused of or convicted of crimes against the United States.

Thus if Pritchart decided that she wanted to issue a presidential pardon to Caslet (which I am not saying --- at this time --- I'm planning on hger doing) for any "crimes" committed against the People's Republic during or after Honor's escape from StateSec custody, she would be entirely within her rights under both the Havenite Constitution and interstellar law. By the same token, the only star nation under whose laws he could be considered guilty of treason or desertion would be Haven's, and she could pardon him for either of those offenses, as well.

runsforcelery wrote:

hanuman wrote:
SNIP

Besides, what everyone is forgetting here is that Haven's government/Congress CANNOT pardon Caslet. I stand by my viewpoint that there will be little public or political opposition to granting him a visitor's visa so that he can visit any surviving family in the Republic.

However, he is no longer a Havenite citizen. Legally, a government cannot pardon a citizen of another star nation. It's just not done. Firstly, because no government has the legal authority to make legal pronouncements about an individual who does not fall under its legal or political jurisdiction. And secondly, because it would be a major faux pas to interfere in the legal jurisdiction of another star nation - especially a star nation it is now allied with.

Not so.

A nation can, indeed, pardon a citizen of another nation so long as the pardon is for crimes committed (or alleged to have been committed) against the nation issuing the pardon. The US President, for example, could not issue a pardon to a British citizen accused of or convicted of crimes against Great Britain but could pardon a British citizen accused of or convicted of crimes against the United States.

Thus if Pritchart decided that she wanted to issue a presidential pardon to Caslet (which I am not saying --- at this time --- I'm planning on hger doing) for any "crimes" committed against the People's Republic during or after Honor's escape from StateSec custody, she would be entirely within her rights under both the Havenite Constitution and interstellar law. By the same token, the only star nation under whose laws he could be considered guilty of treason or desertion would be Haven's, and she could pardon him for either of those offenses, as well.

That's very interesting, Sir. Thank you for the correction...

Weird Harold wrote:

hanuman wrote:...then there's a definite case that they too committed treason against Haven.

"Treason never prospers. For if it prospers, none dare call it treason." -- Ben Franklin(?)

Or another Franklin quote

"We must all hang together, or surely we shall all hang separately"

The winners in a conflict are heros and statesmen.
The losers are subject to trial or judgement.

stewart wrote:The winners in a conflict are heros and statesmen.

The losers are subject to trial or judgement.

But what do you do when the fight is a draw?

Caslet, Yu, Parnell, and other defectors, are in Limbo with Haven because although Manticore could have defeated them outright, or Haven could have taken advantage of the Yawata Strike to defeat Manticore outright, neither did so. Caslet and Yu are now allies, but they have raised arms against their homeland.

Pres Pritchard should probably proclaim a blanket amnesty for all former Havenites declaring that Haven will not prosecute them for "acts of conscience."

Weird Harold wrote:Pres Pritchard should probably proclaim a blanket amnesty for all former Havenites declaring that Haven will not prosecute them for "acts of conscience."

That's crazy. Many former Havenites are ex-SS types or supporters of previous regimes.

That's the issue with blanket amnesties - it covers the bad guys as well as the good ones.