The MAlign all-in response

biochem wrote:Developing a technological and/or genetic counter to the treecats is likely to be an extremely high priority to the RF. If I were in charge it would be the TOP research priority given their negative impact to date on MAlign operations and what they could predict their negative effect could be in the future.

I doubt it will be easy to design a solution. But at least said solution will be easy to test. Give the technology/genetics to some poor dupe, equip it with an automatic self destruct and send him/her to Sphinx with orders to kill the head of the Forestry department. If he/she is successful the technology works, if not back to the drawing board.

Naturally, that has been a priority for hundreds of years. But they have not been successful so far. It's a little hard to develop a defense against something when no one has yet developed instruments to even measure the effect, there is no theoretical basis for understanding the effect, and you have not managed to get any subjects into captivity to do your own testing.

runsforcelery wrote:
***Snip***

There is one hell of a lot of difference between Oyster Bay and a deliberate genocidal attack on an inhabited planet, and it is one which is well recognized under interstellar law and philosophically in the Honorverse. The space station that was destroyed, and whose wreckage impacted the surface of Sphinx, was a legitimate military target because of its industrial, war-supporting capacity. The Eridani Edict has always recognized the “legality” of attacks on space infrastructure. The attacking party is supposed to give sufficient warning and time for civilians to be evacuated, but the Eridani Edict has also always recognized that that may not be militarily possible. The unintended consequences of a legitimate act of war are not the same thing as an intentional atrocity or war crime. While I despise the way in which the term “collateral damage” is used to sanitize the consequences of military operations, it has some validity, and this is a perfect example of it. And lest there be any doubt, while interstellar legal opinion frowns on undeclared wars, they have happened with great frequency in the Honorverse (as in real life). In the Honorverse, they are frequently called “OFS Peacekeeping Missions,” but other people have engaged upon them with depressing frequency.

The Mesan Alignment can argue — or could argue if it was prepared to admit it existed — that the defenses of the Manticore Binary System were so powerful as to preclude any other form of attack on Manticore’s war-fighting capacity. Within that argument, the nature of the attack on the system’s spaceborne infrastructure was entirely legal under the accepted Rules of War. If one puts a military target in orbit around one’s planet, one has to be aware of the possibility that if the military target is attacked and destroyed, debris from it will fall into your planetary gravity well. In fact, the Manties were aware of the possibility/probability and had contingency plans to deal with it. Those contingency plans failed — partially — because the attack came as such a complete surprise that there was no time to activate them. There is a huge difference between what happened to Sphinx as the result of orbital debris strikes which could not to be controlled and certainly were not directed to strike population centers or inflict severe loss of life from tsunamis and a deliberate kinetic strike on an inhabited planet with weapons no one could possibly argue were directed against specific military targets. It isn’t just a difference in degree; it’s a difference in kind, and it would be perceived as such by the inhabitants of the Honorverse. Please note that I am not arguing here that the recipients/survivors of this "collateral damage" would not be looking for the people responsible for it with blood in their eyes and vengeance in their hearts. Nor am I arguing that there wouldn't be significant penalties and reparations involved in any ultimate peace settlement. I'm simply saying that what happened to Sphinx as a consequence of Oyster Bay does not rise to remotely the same level as a deliberate genocidal attack on the same planet.

***Snip***

I agree with these points. That said, there is another point that you have hinted at in your arguments but not explicitly pointed out. That point is intent.

Even today, (at least in the United States criminal justice system - I don't know about other nations and I am not a lawyer in any way) the intent of the person(s) committing an illegal act is taken into consideration for what charges can be brought against the person(s), and also have a direct outcome on what penalties can be imposed on the person(s) if convicted of the offense - the greater the degree of intent, the greater the charge(s) and the penalties imposed on the person(s) if convicted of the charge(s).

For those that don't understand what part intent plays in the legal charge(s) that can be brought against (a) person(s) that allegedly committed a criminal act (the United States justice system assumes the accused is innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt when it concerns criminal law) and the penalties that are imposed on a person found guilty of the charge(s), please read Homicide: Murder and Manslaughter, which gives an explanation of intent with examples relating to the different charges and penalties (2 pages - be sure to read both).

The Alighment has been operating in the shadows and manipulating things for centuries. It is now at the point with will have the RF members stepping into leadership roles for the fragement of the SL as part of the process of the RF members own survival and Star Nation's interest to protect themselves. That will, in general, mean that they will gather to themselves -but work like hell to seem like the soon to be created alliances are voluntarily done and for VERY CLEAR REASONS OF SELF PRESERVATION between the new groupings over time. These are Prolong societies. The Near Term for them and the Alignment could be in the 50 year range.

Part of Houdini is to vanish needed people (for whatever reasons) from Mesa with plausable explanations of their deaths. If nothing else this should be a sign that the Alignment is looking to stay hidden from the Universe at large. They still can't take any credit or public lead in the introduction of any of the planned programs for decades.

Just where do you think the Alignment Population Planning Board is now? Not on Mesa if it wants to continue to oversee the genetic manipulation and 'improvement" of the Star Lines.

If the alignment is going to start launching more attacks with spider drive ships (and other advancemnts in weapons etc) after they start getting the LD's into service and operational, they are going to start becoming more visible. We still don't know what the target profiles are and the actual stratigic plans. If more systems are hit with attacks similar in scope and with weapons and tactics of Oyster Bay, some people in the SL or its major fragments are going to get real concerned about the story Manticore and Haven are telling. Unless part of the plan is to inflict major harm on multiple Star Nations (or future developing alliances) to be formed arounf the RF systems, it will shortly start to be evident that something is starting to stink if none of the systems WE (as opposed to the character in the Honorverse) know are RF get hit since they will very shortly make themselves what SHOULD be high priority targets by forming major economic and military blocks.

The Alignment probably should just slither back into its holes and pull on puppet stirings or it will find itself what a lot of highly motivated people with access to all sorts of hardward trying to find the Alignment and just kill each nest as it is found- after sucking it dry of information, tech and knowledge. The penalty for Piracy, even in the SL if you not very well connected, is summary execution. I will let you speculate on what kind of things the Alignment could do to get just its member and ships killed on sight.

cthia wrote:You knew it was coming. I've been trying my darndest to get an all-in response. Has the time finally come? Do we think that the GA is going to throw a one-two knockout punch or will the MA be a worthy adversary. If the latter, I don't see how they can afford to let the GA strike first. What form could an all-in response take? I say find out where Bolthole is, destroy it. Initiate a few well-placed tac-witches to pull an Oops, grand scale.

Time for all good tacticians and strategists to step forward, or nons to step backward.



.

As Scuffles says, it would be madness for the MA to try to "fight the good fight". They´re most likely preparing to stab GA in the back(again). Getting them into a fight with a dissolving SL might be the first knife in the back, should keep GA busy for a few years.

And since the MA plans were executed early, they need that time to get their own forces up to the point where they CAN stand up.

But overall, their plannning seems mostly to be of the political scheeming type. Getting into an open war is probably something they are trying to avoid(for now).

Hi Valen123456,

Welcome to the forums, enjoy your favorite cg beverage on the cg roof.

There are only 11 RF members, who between them have a considerable combined SDF, which is supposed to impress the scared, yet the GA is far more powerful and totally unplanned for by the MAlign, and far more able to reach more of the SL faster than the RF can, essentially derailing the six hundred old great plan in less than three month's of improvised 'normal' diplomacy given only a handful of facts.

While we can't count on all the SL members to have such brilliant leaders, there will be many more, following in WFB's notion of trusting the first 2000 names in the Boston phone book than the Harvard university faculty.

The intended chaos that was to engulf Mesa has also gone off the rails, when the news gets to Albrecht, he'll be unhappy about that too.

L

Valen123456 wrote:More experianced people have covered the "all-in" option far more effectively than I can. However something I have not seen addressed much is peoples opinions on how successful the RF is going to be. One thing I would really like to see for MAlignments RF plan is for it too, quite simply, fall flat.

Imagine it.

The Alignments dozen or so major systems step up to the plate, pointing out all the Leagues problems and forecasting general doom and gloom with the current system. They then show a shining (or at least safe and stable) future as part of the great new Renissance Factor - airing a lot of Leagues dirty secrets and difficulties to hammer home their point. A notable group of systems respond, either because they are following their friends and allies, because the RF offers to help them with their own problems (wars/economies etc), or because they are frightened with the current situation and want a safe haven [There are plenty of cases both in series and real world that show just how easy it is for people to be lead by someone saying the right things]. All seems to be going well for the Alignment.

But then the majority of other systems start saying things like:
"Who are you? Where did you lot get all these ideas?".
Others reply with "No thanks, we would much rather sign on with the GA given how well they are doing."
Others "We are the Solarian League, and the League must survive! Your just another lot of sepratist nutters like Beowulf."
Others "Join you, Hell No, we would much rather start up our own empires, not sign up with new people."

Thats not to say the Alignment didnt forsee some of this coming, they are pretty bright (if darstedly) after all. But with the compelety unforseen GA growing, someone to actually focus the panic on rather than lots of internal squabbles which they can play off to their advantage, then all their careful plans run smack into a reality they didnt want.

The Deitweilers and MAlignment are then left sitting round a table realising that their mostly political based manuovers are not going to be so effective, and are forced to take a more upfront method about it. Ultimatly falling back on military style cohersion and covert manipulation outside their normal playing fields, in an attempt to hold onto their growing new political situation.

This would eventually put them into the position of confronting Manticore and allies on the military front we all want, so we can watch Harrington give them the kicking they deserve. As previous posts have said the best thing for the Alignment right now is to say hidden, if they do that then time and patience will allow them to win. Once the RF is launched though they will be forced to become fully committed and unable to pull back into the shadows.

Hello RunsForCelery,

Wow!

2 great posts indeed.

Kudos and thank you for your time answering.

Does this mean you've finished a book? CHEERS!

I also hope all is well with Sharon and the kids.

While I might preen about predicting the treecats indeed being another unseen spanner in the works of the MAlign plan [weren't there others?], I'm sure it really doesn't improve my predictive batting average.

Again my concern over not seeing a way of leaving Darius alone without it rising again to war, so what options would HA-H have then.

Granted you aren't going to reveal anything so distant now, but eliminating the direct problem like Terekhov did at Mobius, killing between 50-100,000 people as you posted with many if not most being innocent family members etc, seemed a possible foreshadowing of Darius despite HA-H's harried soul being opposed to the whole idea.

L

runsforcelery wrote:**quote="Annachie"**[quote="Scuffles"]
I fail to see how glassing Sphinx can possibly lead to the league breaking up faster. Care to elaborate?

Also, there's an enormous difference between sneak attacking a legitimate military installation and destroying an entire planet. Sure, there was large amounts of collateral damage, but to suggest that there's not a huge step between the two is crazy.**/quote**

Second part first. No, there's little difference really. Past a certain point an atrocity is an atrocity.
After all, what is the fundamental difference in cutting up a huge space station manned by military and civilians, knowing that large parts will go crashing down the gravity well, and tossing a couple of rocks at a planet populated by military and civilians? Nothing but a modicum of perceived respectability and a touch of PR. Assuming you care about respectability in the first place.
I think we can safely say that the MAlign don't care about respectability.


As for speeding the break up, what do you think will happen in the Solarian League senate? In the Solly media? Remembering that the MAlign have more than enough mouth pieces to push any and all sides to the story.

Firstly, there will be a segment that is all "EE violation we must identifying who did it and punish them"

The second major segment, no doubt pushed by the Mandarins "Well, hey they did declare war on us after all that misinformation and bad diplomacy. Sod 'em. They probably did it to themselves anyway"

Third segment will be all "Maybe we [Solarian League] did it. After all we're fighting an illegal, undeclared, war against them"

Fourth segment. "Maybe Manticore is right about there being some hidden manipulative power causing strife and war"

No doubt there will be more sentiments than that.

Using these feelings the MAlign could damn near start open fighting on the senate floor, let alone between planets. Add to that the ability to have one of the future RF systems come in on Manticore's side with the aim of getting into the GA as a fifth column, and wiping out Sphinx puts a near terminal dent in the Treecat numbers, and by now the Treecats must be worrying Albrecht.

It's unlikely to happen of course, author fiat, and we're not likely to see even the idea presented, but the planning committee has to at least be seriously considering it.

Actually their best bet is to back right off on the military stuff, provide a "Fake MALign headquarters" for the GA to smash, and slip their own Alpha's into the Manticore royal line though marriage to the next in line when that heir is born.

Probably Haven politics too. Probably need two families on opposite sides of the political spectrum to provide tit for tat presidents.

Hang on.
Two family lines.
Opposite sides politically.
Likely swapping the presidency between them.
My god the MAlign are practicing with America!

You can call it “author’s fiat” if you wish, but I don’t understand what the fascination with greater and greater atrocities really is. For some reason, some readers want to posit ever greater monstrosities and then argue that “it only makes sense” for them to happen.

I suppose I could treat it as an indication that people are sufficiently invested in my fictional universe to feel deeply and strongly and to explore all the options. In fact, however, it reminds me of a debate my friend Richard Earnshaw had with people who were so upset with Bernardus Van Dort for feeling horrified by the death inflicted on the terrorists attacked by Aivars Terekhov’s Marines in Shadow of Saganami. I’m not asserting that the cases are identical, but rather that they demonstrate a . . . detachment, perhaps, from the moral, philosophical, and empathic “realities” underlying my literary universe as they tend to underlie the world in which we live, as well.

Are there lunatics who would be so incredibly stupid and so horrendously lacking in both rationality and empathy as to embrace the sort of strategy being recommended here? There probably are. They aren’t the people running the Mesan Alignment, however. The empathy argument might not carry a lot of weight with them, but the rationality one certainly would, as I pointed out in my previous post. You may reject my reasoning, but that’s where that “authorial fiat” comes in. I know what the underlying political factors and public opinion factors are in the Honorverse. I know how long and how thoroughly the Eridani Edict has been internalized by the Solarian League and everyone else living in it. And I know how the polities of the Honorverse will react to an open and intentional Eridani Edict violation.

Annachie wrote:“Second part first. No, there's little difference really. Past a certain point an atrocity is an atrocity.
After all, what is the fundamental difference in cutting up a huge space station manned by military and civilians, knowing that large parts will go crashing down the gravity well, and tossing a couple of rocks at a planet populated by military and civilians? Nothing but a modicum of perceived respectability and a touch of PR. Assuming you care about respectability in the first place.
I think we can safely say that the MAlign don't care about respectability.

There is one hell of a lot of difference between Oyster Bay and a deliberate genocidal attack on an inhabited planet, and it is one which is well recognized under interstellar law and philosophically in the Honorverse. The space station that was destroyed, and whose wreckage impacted the surface of Sphinx, was a legitimate military target because of its industrial, war-supporting capacity. The Eridani Edict has always recognized the “legality” of attacks on space infrastructure. The attacking party is supposed to give sufficient warning and time for civilians to be evacuated, but the Eridani Edict has also always recognized that that may not be militarily possible. The unintended consequences of a legitimate act of war are not the same thing as an intentional atrocity or war crime. While I despise the way in which the term “collateral damage” is used to sanitize the consequences of military operations, it has some validity, and this is a perfect example of it. And lest there be any doubt, while interstellar legal opinion frowns on undeclared wars, they have happened with great frequency in the Honorverse (as in real life). In the Honorverse, they are frequently called “OFS Peacekeeping Missions,” but other people have engaged upon them with depressing frequency.

The Mesan Alignment can argue — or could argue if it was prepared to admit it existed — that the defenses of the Manticore Binary System were so powerful as to preclude any other form of attack on Manticore’s war-fighting capacity. Within that argument, the nature of the attack on the system’s spaceborne infrastructure was entirely legal under the accepted Rules of War. If one puts a military target in orbit around one’s planet, one has to be aware of the possibility that if the military target is attacked and destroyed, debris from it will fall into your planetary gravity well. In fact, the Manties were aware of the possibility/probability and had contingency plans to deal with it. Those contingency plans failed — partially — because the attack came as such a complete surprise that there was no time to activate them. There is a huge difference between what happened to Sphinx as the result of orbital debris strikes which could not to be controlled and certainly were not directed to strike population centers or inflict severe loss of life from tsunamis and a deliberate kinetic strike on an inhabited planet with weapons no one could possibly argue were directed against specific military targets. It isn’t just a difference in degree; it’s a difference in kind, and it would be perceived as such by the inhabitants of the Honorverse. Please note that I am not arguing here that the recipients/survivors of this "collateral damage" would not be looking for the people responsible for it with blood in their eyes and vengeance in their hearts. Nor am I arguing that there wouldn't be significant penalties and reparations involved in any ultimate peace settlement. I'm simply saying that what happened to Sphinx as a consequence of Oyster Bay does not rise to remotely the same level as a deliberate genocidal attack on the same planet.

As for whether or not the Mesan Alignment cares about “respectability,” did you read my previous post? The Alignment is perfectly prepared to embrace less than “respectable” tactics when it believes those tactics will achieve its ends. The Detweilers, unfortunately for your proposed strategy, don’t believe that launching genocidal attacks — deliberate genocidal attacks — on inhabited planets will achieve their ends and do believe there would be a very significant chance of such attacks making it impossible for them to achieve their ends.

There is no conceivable reason for them to launch such an attack. Convince the Manties the Solarian League launched it? Ludicrous. No one in a position of authority in the Grand Alliance would buy that for a moment. Speed the breakup of the Solarian League by creating “warring factions” within the Assembly? Why bother? At the present moment, the Alignment’s plans for the destruction of the existing Solarian League are proceeding quite nicely. Whether they will continue to proceed in an equally satisfactory manner remains to be seen, but why in the world would they want to launch an attack which would have all of the negative consequences I outlined in my previous post (at least as far as the Grand Alliance is concerned, even if — as I do not believe for a moment would happen — internal debate within the League prevented it from accepting the Grand Alliance’s version of what happened) when the master plan already in play is essentially succeeding? You say “Using these feelings the MAlign could damn near start open fighting on the senate floor, let alone between planets,” but let’s be serious here. If the Assembly had any real political power to begin with, floor fights there might have some impact on the conduct of the war. It has no such real power so long as the present system remains intact, and there is no way in hell that planetary systems within the League are going to go to war with one another over differences of opinion about who launched a genocidal attack on a third party. You might accelerate the disintegration process by causing other Beowulfs to withdraw from the League in the extremely unlikely case that you managed to convince a majority of the populations of the planets in question that the League did it. Other than that, you accomplish nothing where the breakup of the League is concerned while running the very real risk of convincing significant portions of the League to believe Manticore was telling the truth all along.

The only potential upside to this from the Alignment’s perspective would be the possible destruction of the treecats as a species, which you apparently believe would make it significantly easier for somebody from the Renaissance Factor to infiltrate the Grand Alliance. It probably would make that somewhat easier, but not sufficiently so to come remotely close to justifying the potential negatives resulting from such an attack. And, by the way, planning it as a deliberate way to eliminate treecats assumes a considerably greater awareness of the threat potential represented by the ‘cats than anyone else — even in the Alignment — currently recognizes. Remember that the treecats are still in the process of coming into the open as bodyguards and partners. It will take some time for the Alignment to recognize what’s happening and begin factoring that into its planning, and while that time is passing, treecats will be establishing additional colonies on additional planets, precisely because of the species’ experience with Oyster Bay.

Moreover, even if the treecats were eliminated, the Grand Alliance is bound to start working on additional security measures, since there is after all a finite supply of treecats in the first place. Those additional security measures may not offer as many advantages in a single package as a treecat does (at least in theory) but people seem to be assuming that the treecats’ empathic sense is far closer to telepathy or mind reading that it actually is. They can tell when someone is deliberately lying; they cannot tell what someone is lying about or why that someone is lying in the first place. They can detect immediate threats; they cannot detect long-term threats which are not directed against a specific individual by a specific individual. That is, they may be able to determine that someone feels hostility towards another person, but unless they pick up the “emotional spikes” which go with an imminent attack, they will be unable to provide any greater warning than that. For that matter, it’s not as easy for even a treecat to parse human emotions as finely as some people seem to be assuming. The “mind-glow” is a kaleidoscope of emotions, many of which slide into one another without clear, discernible “edges.” It takes some sharply defining moment, attitude, event, whatever to provide the stark contrast which would allow a treecat to differentiate between (for example) anxiety, defensiveness, and hostility.

The only thing (aside from the problematic elimination of the “treecat threat”) which the Alignment be likely to accomplish at this point my launching a kinetic strike against Sphinx would be to further infuriate the one military and political opponent already actively seeking them, which seems like a pretty poor objective whether they are worried about “respectability” or not.

As for the strategy of deliberately marrying into the royal line in Manticore, forget about it. First, because the Alignment would never base any major component of its overall strategy on something as problematic as its ability to provide a suitably attractive suitor for some future monarch a couple of hundred years down the line (given that Elizabeth and Roger are both prolonged recipients). Second, I think that we can take it for granted that between Beowulf, Manticore, and Haven, someone is going to come up with a genetic screening process for detecting the various Mesan genetic lines. The Grand Alliance may not find the “inner onion” of the Alignment on Mesa, but it will certainly find plenty of genetic records, including those of quite a few people who are genetically Alpha or Beta line — the rest of the McBryde family comes to mind, for example — which will allow them to construct genetic profiles of Alignment families. Those genetic lines may be sufficiently broadly distributed in the general population as to prevent a suspect genotype from being automatic proof of involvement with the Alignment, but I will absolutely guarantee you that anyone the screening process flags will be exhaustively investigated before he or she is allowed anywhere near the heir to the Manticoran throne. His or her life will be put under a microscope that will go back generations, and the probability of something giving away even a generational sleeper in the face of that sort of investigation would be far too high for the Alignment to try it.[/quote]

runsforcelery wrote:The unintended consequences of a legitimate act of war are not the same thing as an intentional atrocity or war crime.

Whilst you of course know for certain, we the reader cannot draw the conclusion that it was unintended. Indeed given the nature of the attack, and the goals that were stated, we must draw the conclusion that it probably was intended. A nice bonus if you will.

Regardless, I still maintain that, morally speaking, there is no real difference in the atrocities.
(For reference I do consider the carpet bombing of London, and the civilian deaths caused by the bombing of the Möhne damn as atrocities to some extent. Really, anytime civilians become acceptable collateral damage)

Are there lunatics who would be so incredibly stupid and so horrendously lacking in both rationality and empathy as to embrace the sort of strategy being recommended here? There probably are. They aren’t the people running the Mesan

Again, I would argue that they already have embraced that strategy. That they have no empathy at all and little if any rationality. Their plan is to start wars and general strife that could kill billions. That is still in the first stages and has damn near killed tens of millions already.

I know how long and how thoroughly the Eridani Edict has been internalized by the Solarian League and everyone else living in it. And I know how the polities of the Honorverse will react to an open and intentional Eridani Edict violation.

A violation by whom? And therein lies the oppertunity. With no evidence as to whom, and massive feelings on the subject, and a large ability to direct the public discussion, the MAlign may see it as an oppertunity to hammer blow the Solarian unity.

As for the strategy of deliberately marrying into the royal line in Manticore, forget about it. First, because the Alignment would never base any major component of its overall strategy on something as problematic as its ability to provide a suitably attractive suitor for some future monarch a couple of hundred years down the line (given that Elizabeth and Roger are both prolonged recipients). Second, I think that we can take it for granted that between Beowulf, Manticore, and Haven, someone is going to come up with a genetic screening process for detecting the various Mesan genetic lines.

Um, they already have in the leaders of all the RF planets. Ok, massive redundancy in that plan, but it is in essence what they did.
Who is to say such a family, such a suitor, would come from anywhere near Mesa? Why not from a planet with a long history of opposing the Slave trade. A history that goes back tens of generations. Again the RF worlds provide impecable backgrounds and histories for such agents.

Or even as part of a future coup.

The only thing (aside from the problematic elimination of the “treecat threat”) which the Alignment be likely to accomplish at this point my launching a kinetic strike against Sphinx would be to further infuriate the one military and political opponent already actively seeking them, which seems like a pretty poor objective whether they are worried about “respectability” or not.

With regard to Manticore, it would make things worse how?

Ok, perhaps I put that a bit too snarky, but I can't see how anything would make Manticore more infuriated or more dedicated to hunting down the MAlign and eliminating them.

How much the MAlign is worried by the treecats is something I suppose we had to guess at but that you know. We sit at the outside and see how potentially devastating they can be. How devastating they have been. A specific example is their lie detecting ability and the Haven/Manticore treaty.




I suppose I see no fundamental difference in things that they have done compared to glassing a planet. I can't see how they would have any moral or ethical problem with anything. Or even any real belief that they will be caught doing it.
The only problem they would possibly have is how it would affect their great endeavour.

After Houdini I think the MA will follow its last 600 years of guide lines and just disappear. Re establish itself somewhere, let the league fall apart, keep the Manties showing how insane they are shouting about ghosts while the MA continues to rebuild. Reinsert itself. Bring out a new line of undetectable agents. Ones that don't know they are agents. Ambitious types that will go fourth and be the best they can be, being they are the best already that can be a lot. Next president or 3rd next president of Haven. Prime minister or the SEM, next chairman of the League. Head of medical research of Beowulf. New leader a clone of Mesa. Torch... Benevolent ruler of the next to be liberated rulers of 300 verge planets.

Stack the deck. May take another 600 years but the Alignment knows waiting is often the best option. 600 years should be enough time for the credible conspiracy theories to turn into wack jobs who do not know squat. Helped along by those agents already in place. Plus a few breeding partners specificly selected to keep the inner onion happy and genetically helpful years to come. Audrey O'Hallrahans (sp?) Grand daughter or son, genetically perfect politician for leading the new League. Passes every treecat test with flying colours. Benevolent ruler with a political lucky streak. Pre designed to fall into place, through selected breeding. Grandma Audrey and the freed Mesan Slave she married. Their child who became the next First? president of a free Mesa. Strong ties with Torch and Beowulf and SEM... Genetics and the predisposition to do great things.

After all the Alignment isn't out to militarily take over but rather to rule and replace who they can where they can eventually everywhere. Why not arrange for the ones to be replaced to do all the heavy lifting. Arrange a royal wedding or three, with the genetic code to sway a nation. Fool a treecat and take over the known Galaxy.

[quote="Lord Skimper"]After Houdini I think the MA will follow its last 600 years of guide lines and just disappear./quote]

That would be the smart thing for them to do Yes. However the current generation of the Alignment is now too invested in actually launching their plan to pull back now I think. Re-read Albrechts internal monologs in the last chapters of Mission of Honor (when he introduces and sends messages to the RF leadership), the only reason they are not Bond-villian gloatings is that they are inside his own head not out loud.

They genuinely feel that they can pull all their plans off, despite the snarls they have had on the way so far. They have reached the critical point and if they pull back now they wont get the chance again for a very long time. And to be fair can you blame them?, most people are nowhere near as patient as they have been so far.

So No, they wont pull back into the shadows, in the next novel im pretty sure the RF will be launched with great fanfare, and achieve a great deal of early success bringing whole systems into its grip. Only to fall flat as the true situation smacks them in the face, many systems they want/need dont sign on, whole new chaos erupts and they cant control it. And somewhere along the way they slip up and let something spill and then ... only Weber knows what happens then.

Hi Lord Skimper,

This looks more like attempted trolling than paying attention to what RFC has posted.

L

Lord Skimper wrote:After Houdini I think the MA will follow its last 600 years of guide lines and just disappear. Re establish itself somewhere, let the league fall apart, keep the Manties showing how insane they are shouting about ghosts while the MA continues to rebuild. Reinsert itself. Bring out a new line of undetectable agents. Ones that don't know they are agents. Ambitious types that will go fourth and be the best they can be, being they are the best already that can be a lot. Next president or 3rd next president of Haven. Prime minister or the SEM, next chairman of the League. Head of medical research of Beowulf. New leader a clone of Mesa. Torch... Benevolent ruler of the next to be liberated rulers of 300 verge planets.

Stack the deck. May take another 600 years but the Alignment knows waiting is often the best option. 600 years should be enough time for the credible conspiracy theories to turn into wack jobs who do not know squat. Helped along by those agents already in place. Plus a few breeding partners specificly selected to keep the inner onion happy and genetically helpful years to come. Audrey O'Hallrahans (sp?) Grand daughter or son, genetically perfect politician for leading the new League. Passes every treecat test with flying colours. Benevolent ruler with a political lucky streak. Pre designed to fall into place, through selected breeding. Grandma Audrey and the freed Mesan Slave she married. Their child who became the next First? president of a free Mesa. Strong ties with Torch and Beowulf and SEM... Genetics and the predisposition to do great things.

After all the Alignment isn't out to militarily take over but rather to rule and replace who they can where they can eventually everywhere. Why not arrange for the ones to be replaced to do all the heavy lifting. Arrange a royal wedding or three, with the genetic code to sway a nation. Fool a treecat and take over the known Galaxy.