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How are junction fees paid and collected

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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jan 23, 2025 8:14 pm

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tlb wrote:Note that Jonathan_S pointed out that HotQ was written before the great resizing and the author's remark about the hyper-generator being specifically sized to the ship came after; so the idea of a DB having a generator field large enough to enclose a warship which could carry the DB has been shut down.

Currently the only outsize hyper-generators allowed are those for the streak drive.

What good would this maneuver be anyway? It cannot be for scouting, since the DB could just go through by itself to report.

Also a terminus has a (small) hyper limit around itself. And while you can obviously use your hyper generator within that limit to pass through the terminus; to get into hyper you'd first have clear that hyper limit.
On Basilisk Station wrote:Both wormholes and stars had hyper limits, within which no ship could enter or leave hyper. For junctions, the limit was, less than a million kilometers

So even if, somehow, a DB's generator could boost a freighter into hyperspace it couldn't do so until both ships were well clear of the exit lane. And by that point the freighter's hyper generator should be mostly recharged anyway; as even once clear of the lane it'll take it about 15 more minutes for the average freighter to clear the Junction's hyper limit.

So this might be a party trick (if you had a ship with a sufficiently large/powerful hyper generator) -- but it's not going to save much time nor be of much use evading authorities
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by penny   » Sat Jan 25, 2025 9:47 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:
tlb wrote:Note that Jonathan_S pointed out that HotQ was written before the great resizing and the author's remark about the hyper-generator being specifically sized to the ship came after; so the idea of a DB having a generator field large enough to enclose a warship which could carry the DB has been shut down.

Currently the only outsize hyper-generators allowed are those for the streak drive.

What good would this maneuver be anyway? It cannot be for scouting, since the DB could just go through by itself to report.

Also a terminus has a (small) hyper limit around itself. And while you can obviously use your hyper generator within that limit to pass through the terminus; to get into hyper you'd first have clear that hyper limit.
On Basilisk Station wrote:Both wormholes and stars had hyper limits, within which no ship could enter or leave hyper. For junctions, the limit was, less than a million kilometers

So even if, somehow, a DB's generator could boost a freighter into hyperspace it couldn't do so until both ships were well clear of the exit lane. And by that point the freighter's hyper generator should be mostly recharged anyway; as even once clear of the lane it'll take it about 15 more minutes for the average freighter to clear the Junction's hyper limit.

So this might be a party trick (if you had a ship with a sufficiently large/powerful hyper generator) -- but it's not going to save much time nor be of much use evading authorities


Hmm… I just remembered where we were in the 'Insanity' thread before the current 15 page detour that belongs in the ‘Corner the Market on Trade’ thread. On page 15 of the Insanity thread, right before the detour, I suggested that the Spider drive may be able to function in the emergence lane without a sail. Enabling an LD to drop down through a manhole cover Z minus 10,000 kilometers. Saving that maneuver for the Insanity thread, since we do not know what mechanism the Spider drive ships will employ to transit, a Spider ship may be able to emerge then immediately transit again without being made to pay any junction fees by ACS, or being made to pay for being the enemy by the RMN, Forts or defensive emplacements.
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by tlb   » Sat Jan 25, 2025 2:20 pm

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penny wrote:Saving that maneuver for the Insanity thread, since we do not know what mechanism the Spider drive ships will employ to transit, a Spider ship may be able to emerge then immediately transit again without being made to pay any junction fees by ACS, or being made to pay for being the enemy by the RMN, Forts or defensive emplacements.

There have been discussions about the capabilities of the spider drive ships. When first mentioned in Storm from the Shadows, the spider drive itself was the only piece of unproved technology in the Ghost and Shark classes and the Sharks were training ships for the Leonard Detweiler class.
Spider Drive Ships and Technical Limitations
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jan 25, 2025 9:31 pm

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penny wrote:Saving that maneuver for the Insanity thread, since we do not know what mechanism the Spider drive ships will employ to transit, a Spider ship may be able to emerge then immediately transit again without being made to pay any junction fees by ACS, or being made to pay for being the enemy by the RMN, Forts or defensive emplacements.

If they could (which I seriously doubt) it would have to be due to some difference in how the 'brute force' streak drive hyper generator works compared to a normal one. Because the spider drive itself is only for moving around within a band (or n-space) and has nothing to do with going through a wormhole, or entering/leaving hyperspace.

Because being able to use a spider to maneuver within a terminus's arrival/departure lanes (assuming it can) doesn't help the hyper generator recharge any faster; and recharge time is the gating factor on how fast a ship of any significant size can go through a terminus again. (Taking half and hour or more for a large ship)

So if this capability exists (which, again, I doubt) it would be a streak drive characteristic; not a spider drive one. (And while all spider ships seem to have streak drives, not all streak drive ships have spider drives)
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by penny   » Sat Jan 25, 2025 11:51 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
penny wrote:Saving that maneuver for the Insanity thread, since we do not know what mechanism the Spider drive ships will employ to transit, a Spider ship may be able to emerge then immediately transit again without being made to pay any junction fees by ACS, or being made to pay for being the enemy by the RMN, Forts or defensive emplacements.

If they could (which I seriously doubt) it would have to be due to some difference in how the 'brute force' streak drive hyper generator works compared to a normal one. Because the spider drive itself is only for moving around within a band (or n-space) and has nothing to do with going through a wormhole, or entering/leaving hyperspace.

Because being able to use a spider to maneuver within a terminus's arrival/departure lanes (assuming it can) doesn't help the hyper generator recharge any faster; and recharge time is the gating factor on how fast a ship of any significant size can go through a terminus again. (Taking half and hour or more for a large ship)

So if this capability exists (which, again, I doubt) it would be a streak drive characteristic; not a spider drive one. (And while all spider ships seem to have streak drives, not all streak drive ships have spider drives)

Interesting. In another thread, I suggested that a spider-drive ship might enjoy some sort of advantage by projecting its oversized tractor beam into a WH. It was a notion looking for a problem. Perhaps locking onto the inside of a WH rather than locking onto the hyper wall can instantly charge their oversized hyper-generator. Even if that capability has a very limited number of uses because it severely decreases the MTBF. Wear and tear.

Of course, would it be possible to project inside a WH. A tractor beam does not have sails, but there is a distortion there.
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Jan 28, 2025 1:56 am

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penny wrote:Interesting. In another thread, I suggested that a spider-drive ship might enjoy some sort of advantage by projecting its oversized tractor beam into a WH. It was a notion looking for a problem. Perhaps locking onto the inside of a WH rather than locking onto the hyper wall can instantly charge their oversized hyper-generator. Even if that capability has a very limited number of uses because it severely decreases the MTBF. Wear and tear.

Of course, would it be possible to project inside a WH. A tractor beam does not have sails, but there is a distortion there.


Weren't HV WH transitions described as effectively instantaneous? That is, the length of the wormhole is infinitesimally small. There would be no inside, nothing to grab to.
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by penny   » Tue Jan 28, 2025 7:11 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
penny wrote:Interesting. In another thread, I suggested that a spider-drive ship might enjoy some sort of advantage by projecting its oversized tractor beam into a WH. It was a notion looking for a problem. Perhaps locking onto the inside of a WH rather than locking onto the hyper wall can instantly charge their oversized hyper-generator. Even if that capability has a very limited number of uses because it severely decreases the MTBF. Wear and tear.

Of course, would it be possible to project inside a WH. A tractor beam does not have sails, but there is a distortion there.


Weren't HV WH transitions described as effectively instantaneous? That is, the length of the wormhole is infinitesimally small. There would be no inside, nothing to grab to.

That does not necessarily indicate an infinitesimally short length rather than an inexplicably fast transit.

Regardless, IINM textev does bear witness to an area of distortion. And I'm willing to bet that area of distortion is highly energetic. An energetic nature that the LD's brute force tractor beams might be able to utilize to instantly charge the hyper-generator.

Late edit: Plus, the same immeasurable transit speeds would not change if the alleged infinitesimally small length was instead simply reasonably small. Reasonably small can still be longer than the maximum range of the tractor beams.

And even though the tractor beams do not have sails, they consist of particles of energy rather than being a uniform solid nature. And although the beams would be projected “inside” the WH, their source would still remain outside. Indicating a possible feedback of energy charging the high capacity instant-charge capacitors feeding the hyper-generator.
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jan 28, 2025 2:04 pm

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penny wrote:Interesting. In another thread, I suggested that a spider-drive ship might enjoy some sort of advantage by projecting its oversized tractor beam into a WH. It was a notion looking for a problem. Perhaps locking onto the inside of a WH rather than locking onto the hyper wall can instantly charge their oversized hyper-generator. Even if that capability has a very limited number of uses because it severely decreases the MTBF. Wear and tear.

Of course, would it be possible to project inside a WH. A tractor beam does not have sails, but there is a distortion there.


overall response to this thread -

Remember, we have never seen a spider drive ship make a wormhole transit. The only "proof" we have that they can do so is David replying something to the effect of: "Why would someone design a ship that couldn't use a wormhole", which is not an acknowledgement that they do... or don't. If they do, we don't know if they use the spider drive to maneuver - in fact, they could just use fusion thrusters in N-space and a separate minimalist sail device to engage with the wormhole - or a tinfoil light sail - or maybe a fresh salmon hat.

We simply do not have any data on the topic beyond a vague remark pretty much acknowledging that yes, being able to use a wormhole is a good idea in a space ship design, and not much more.
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by tlb   » Tue Jan 28, 2025 2:34 pm

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Theemile wrote:Remember, we have never seen a spider drive ship make a wormhole transit. The only "proof" we have that they can do so is David replying something to the effect of: "Why would someone design a ship that couldn't use a wormhole", which is not an acknowledgement that they do... or don't. If they do, we don't know if they use the spider drive to maneuver - in fact, they could just use fusion thrusters in N-space and a separate minimalist sail device to engage with the wormhole - or a tinfoil light sail - or maybe a fresh salmon hat.

We simply do not have any data on the topic beyond a vague remark pretty much acknowledging that yes, being able to use a wormhole is a good idea in a space ship design, and not much more.

To be clear, we know that both the Shark class and the Ghost class can manage hyperspace transitions; so the only additional unknown is whether they mount sails. Although we do not know how far away from inhabited space Darius is, we do know that there is a wormhole that connects it. We know that the only experimental part of the equipment for these ship classes was the spider drive (and maybe the streak drive). So the question is whether the Malign would build a warship that cannot use either wormholes or gravity waves in hyperspace.
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Re: How are junction fees paid and collected
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jan 28, 2025 4:45 pm

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tlb wrote:To be clear, we know that both the Shark class and the Ghost class can manage hyperspace transitions; so the only additional unknown is whether they mount sails. Although we do not know how far away from inhabited space Darius is, we do know that there is a wormhole that connects it. We know that the only experimental part of the equipment for these ship classes was the spider drive (and maybe the streak drive). So the question is whether the Malign would build a warship that cannot use either wormholes or gravity waves in hyperspace.

Though there is the one other indication that Ghosts and Sharks should be able to handle grav waves; and that's a relatively passing description, way back in HotQ, of Honor's little convoy arriving under sail.

Specifically
Honor of the Queen wrote:“Mark!” DuMorne said crisply, and the normally inaudible hum of Fearless’s hyper generator became a basso growl.
[snip] readouts flashed steadily downward as the entire convoy plummeted “down” the hyper space gradient.
Fearless hit the gamma wall, and her Warshawski sails bled transit energy like an azure forest fire. Her velocity dropped almost instantly from .3 C to a mere nine percent of light-speed, [snip]
DuMorne’s calculations had allowed for the energy bleed, and their translation gradient steepened even further as their velocity fell. They hit the beta wall four minutes later, and Honor winced again—less violently this time—as their velocity bled down to less than two percent of light-speed. The visual display was a fierce chaos of heaving light as the convoy fell straight “down” across a “distance” which had no physical existence, and then they hit the alpha bands and flashed across them to the n-space wall like a comet.
[snip]
Stephen had done his usual bang-up job, and Fearless and her charges floated twenty-four light-minutes from Yeltsin’s Star, just outside the F6’s hyper limit.


So, at a very minimum, there's a grav wave in the Delta bands basically right up to Yeltsin's hyper limit. And assuming RFC remembered than brief mention all those books later when writing Oyster Bay he'd have had to account for the spider ships' ability to deal with that wave.

Though I guess, despite the convoy keeping sails up all the way to n-space, that the wave might not reach down into the Alpha bands. (Since we know grav waves don't always cover all accessible hyper bands). If it didn't, then ships unable to navigate a wave could drop 'under' it and slip up on Grayson through the Alpha bands without needing to interact with the 'wave. Alternatively if the Yeltsin system was on the absolute edge of the wave they might be able to avoid it by making a detour through normal space to avoid it -- though that'd be very slow.

So this isn't a slam dunk confirmation that the Ghosts and Sharks can handle grav waves; but it is another indication that they likely can. (But of course we don't know any tech details)
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