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Collin's assassination list

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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Aug 19, 2020 1:55 pm

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Fox2! wrote:Did Young not think that, with the King and Crown Princess both having been adopted by tree cats, that the death of a tree cat at Saganami Island would not be investigated, and that the full weight of RMNCIS and probably Palace Security, would not descend on the Island once the necroscopy revealed the presence of the poison? And that what ever other tree cats were on the Island, or whose Person could get them on the Island, would not be poking around themselves?


There are two possible answers:

1) "no," he simply didn't think about it. He was too arrogant to think of the consequences and he paid treecats absolutely no mind. They didn't factor into his calculations. For the majority of people, treecats are nothing but pets; that both the King and Crown Princess had them would go unnoticed or at most as an interesting coincidence.

2) "yes, but it didn't matter." He simply thought that he could get away with it, just like he thought he could get away with rape. If any investigation were launched, he thought that his father and family name would make it all go away.
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Aug 19, 2020 2:12 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Also, if he had known what to look for, would Genghis have acted earlier?


Genghis was seemingly in the room for more than a few minutes, as they were there specifically to sample everyone's minds, keep in mind Queen Berry was already several minutes later (I think it was well over 30mins to be exact). Presumably Genghis and his human were there from just before all the Solarian perfume representatives started arriving, and gone through preliminary security (Palace Gates sort of check).


I have to reread now, but I remember Judson and Genghis arriving after they were already in the room.

There were clearly just enough company representatives the nanite infectee slipped through the initial security checks and it took Genghis and his human quite a while to notice exactly 1 briefcase with samples being in the entire room and that clued them in to move to go take a second closer look. Except by that point it was too late, Queen Berry arrived and that triggered Genghis into attack mode.

[cut]

But since he'd been in the same room as Genghis for possibly as long as an hour (arrival, basic security check, Berry being late), that low-grade hypnosis and/or non-physical nanite control is all but confirmed as undetectable to treecat senses. Same thing as Tim Meares trying to kill Honor.. surely he was in the same room with her at least once before he finally triggered on flag bridge, but she never once sensed a thing until Tim activated and pulled Spencer's pulser.


Sorry, I disagree. The fact that Genghis didn't act sooner only proves that Genghis detected nothing immediately threatening, not that he detected nothing at all. This is what my question up above is meant to ask: had he known what to look for, would Genghis have acted sooner?

Both this and Tim Meares' action were the first time treecats (and Honor) were exposed to nanite controlled humans. No one knew they could perceive control at all, much less determine that it was a threat, not the treecats, not Honor, not the MAlign. So it's possible that Genghis detected the low-grade internal conflict, but didn't know it to be any different than regular two-leg internal conflict.

Genghis didn't survive this encounter, but both Honor and Nimitz did. Nimitz' language transmitter is damaged, but we know he could still communicate with Honor by way of images and impressions, which may be enough to communicate with others. And we know the GA security services detected a number of moles and controlled patsies with help from treecats later on, so it's an almost certainty that they now know what to look for.

That seems to be the threshold, the moment the nanites actually take physical control and your mind goes into the backseat screaming; no treecat or Harrington can sense the lurking threat. Anything before hand, and you're effectively Agent 47, invisible yet in plain sight and nobody knows just how close Death is lurking.


For Tim, that appears to have been the case. He knew nothing about it and didn't seem to be conflicted, until the trigger conditions were present. William Tyler (the pharmaceutical rep) was already conflicted before the trigger because he was carrying the weapon.

So back to the possibility of an assassination at Dempsey's, an assassin carrying a weapon might be detected by the treecat before the attempt even happens. An assassin not carrying a weapon needs to have a trigger for something they can use as a weapon, which limits the possibilities.
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:52 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:
That seems to be the threshold, the moment the nanites actually take physical control and your mind goes into the backseat screaming; no treecat or Harrington can sense the lurking threat. Anything before hand, and you're effectively Agent 47, invisible yet in plain sight and nobody knows just how close Death is lurking.

That makes sense to me. Its easier to fool the mind about internal thoughts; very hard to notice that "hey I'm not the one thinking that"; so very unlikely to trigger the noticeable panic that tips off a treecat.

But limbs moving without, and then against, your control is basically impossible to ignore or explain away and so very likely to cause mental panic and alert a treecat.

That said, it's possible that with more exposure and experience 'cats could learn what a 'high' or 'stoned' mindglow looks like and alert security to keep such people far away from the protectees. It's be more subtle than gibbering panic; but still might be detectable, even in a stranger, once the cats know to look for it.

OTOH Tim Meares wouldn't even have had that warning sign, because he wasn't being convinced to carry anything, so no need to cloud his mind at all. The nanites simply had to monitor his vision passively until the elements were in place to trigger his programming. So whether detecting mentally altered people would be a help would depend on which style of assassination the MAlign were attempting.
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by cthia   » Wed Aug 19, 2020 5:15 pm

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Indeed, Somtaaw, Jonathan.

Also, an unobtrusive covert weapon unbeknownst to the drone needs to be used. Again, like a bomb-rigged compact (makeup case) that no woman leaves home without.

There's just too much internal strife going on in any human's everyday life for it to begin setting off a Cat. Restaurants are historically an iniquitous den of internal strife and anxieties.

'Should I quit my job. Should I fire my present nanny. Is she sleeping with my husband. How do I end my affair with my boss. Should I file for divorce. Is she sleeping with my best friend.' Etc.

Internal strife is dripping all over the floors and oozing out of the walls in a high pressure high stress environment like a five star restaurant. If Cats are that sensitive, they will get drowned out by the noise. Unless there is an accompanying physical flaw like a nervous tick or loss of balance, I just don't see it, even given time to acclimate themselves to it because many people are affected by internal strife differently. Heck, even Honor had some serious bouts with it over a loong period of time dealing with different matters.

I really like the idea of some threshold of emotion that will launch a Cat on a zero/zero intercept. I even broached the idea of a critical threshold in the "Honor, Nimitz and Pavel Young" thread. In that thread I used a Wheel of Emotions to make the point. I would think the threshold would have to hit somewhere on the innermost circle.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Aug 19, 2020 9:15 pm

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Based on what we have seen so far, delivering the nanite infection is a two stage process. 1st is aquirening the DNA of the target and 2nd is delivering the adapted nanite to the target. After that, you just need to trigger it. So a waiter could pocket something with the target's DNA on it and, depending on how the adapted nanite is delivered back it could be almost anyone.

If someone doesn't know that they have been exposed to the nanite, they are unlikely to be tested for having it. We also don't know of the various tests (otherwise not damaging to the target) that can now detect the nanites would also trigger the subject's death. So you introduce it to the target and weeks later they get a phone call or something else innocuous and drop dead. If they are not found for hours then probably not much will be learned and there will be no trail leading back to either the person who introduced it into them or who took that DNA sample to begin with.

Nasty stuff.
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by cthia   » Thu Aug 20, 2020 12:53 am

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Brigade XO wrote:Based on what we have seen so far, delivering the nanite infection is a two stage process. 1st is aquirening the DNA of the target and 2nd is delivering the adapted nanite to the target. After that, you just need to trigger it. So a waiter could pocket something with the target's DNA on it and, depending on how the adapted nanite is delivered back it could be almost anyone.

If someone doesn't know that they have been exposed to the nanite, they are unlikely to be tested for having it. We also don't know of the various tests (otherwise not damaging to the target) that can now detect the nanites would also trigger the subject's death. So you introduce it to the target and weeks later they get a phone call or something else innocuous and drop dead. If they are not found for hours then probably not much will be learned and there will be no trail leading back to either the person who introduced it into them or who took that DNA sample to begin with.

Nasty stuff.

Indeed, XO.

You've hit on the very reason I think Dempsey's employees would be ideal. They are very accessible. Even their habits can be studied at length. Items, like compacts, can be studied, duplicated and rigged. Obtaining DNA from a restaurant employee is easy. They leave samples everywhere, even the coat closets. If walls could talk.

The drones themselves are impervious to dropping dead, they don't know anything. Their handlers should be long gone.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by cthia   » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:17 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:Jeremy X has yet to make any meaningful impact on the MAlign, so he's barely even on the assassination radar. Sure he is the "former" leader of the Ballroom, and has even attacked minor MAlign officials although that was while they were masquerading as Mesan corporate assets rather than acting openly as MAlign so that's purely coincidental.


Admittedly, he's part of the government of Torch as their War Minister, but even that's almost pathetic compared to Naval leaders of larger powers like Manticore, Haven and Anderman. Leaving aside how the Ballroom, or at least what's left of it, is supposed to be turning more legitimate instead of remaining outright terrorists & assassins themselves, so they shouldn't be doing pinpoint strikes that ONLY kill Mesan scorpions. Reading between the lines, during the meeting between Albrecht & sons concerning their evacuation from Mesa, from the looks of things actual Ballroom strikes never used bombs they were pistoleers who were very very good at aiming. Any Ballroom strikes that used non-targetted strikes and bombs were MAlign false flag operations designed to drum up additional anti-Ballroom support.


If Jeremy X gets assassinated, it won't stop the Ballroom from continuing operations because they're not your average resistance movement. He's not even remotely close to Agnes Norbrandt who, when she "died carrying a backpack of explosives" her FAK movement actually stopped being effective for a while and acted like they were leaderless. If Jeremy X were to die, whether from open assassination or "dies tracelessly in his sleep", another Ballroom member would simply step up to become their public face and effectively nothing else changes, except possibly becoming even more active because IIRC Jeremy was part of what held the Ballroom back from using explosives and more aggressive operations.

Your logic makes sense to me. But reiterating to explain myself, I would think the subject of Jeremy X is personal. The MA can't have him being an example to all the slaves on Darius. And if word also gets back to them he has set up a haven on Torch for them, the slaves can become rebellious. He's a mote in the Master Race's eye and a sign to the galaxy they don't have control of their slaves, castes or this Master Race notion, like I preached for at least a million millennia. I agree they may not go out of the way for him, but if opportunity knocks . . .

Then again, there's the Martyr issue too, which could plague the MA.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by tlb   » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:31 pm

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cthia wrote: I would think the subject of Jeremy X is personal. The MA can't have him being an example to all the slaves on Darius. And if word also gets back to them he has set up a haven on Torch for them, the slaves can become rebellious. He's a mote in the Master Race's eye and a sign to the galaxy they don't have control of their slaves, castes or this Master Race notion, like I preached for at least a million millennia. I agree they may not go out of the way for him, but if opportunity knocks . . .

Then again, there's the Martyr issue too, which could plague the MA.

Leaving aside the question of how such information could begin to circulate; it is my understanding that workers on Darius do not think of themselves as slaves. So far as they know, they are valued members of a meritocracy, who can go as far as their intelligence will take them. Unfortunately there are the Alphas, Betas and Gammas that outshine them; but that is just the natural order of things.

I thought it was stated somewhere, that they did not even know that their administration had been involved in the genetic slave trade.
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by cthia   » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:44 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote: I would think the subject of Jeremy X is personal. The MA can't have him being an example to all the slaves on Darius. And if word also gets back to them he has set up a haven on Torch for them, the slaves can become rebellious. He's a mote in the Master Race's eye and a sign to the galaxy they don't have control of their slaves, castes or this Master Race notion, like I preached for at least a million millennia. I agree they may not go out of the way for him, but if opportunity knocks . . .

Then again, there's the Martyr issue too, which could plague the MA.

Leaving aside the question of how such information could begin to circulate; it is my understanding that workers on Darius do not think of themselves as slaves. So far as they know, they are valued members of a meritocracy, who can go as far as their intelligence will take them. Unfortunately there are the Alphas, Betas and Gammas that outshine them; but that is just the natural order of things.

I thought it was stated somewhere, that they did not even know that their administration had been involved in the genetic slave trade.

As far as information reaching Darius, contrary to popular belief, the grapevine grows anywhere.

That's my point. Jeremy X challenges the current status quo and any information reaching the slaves could be enlightening. My grandfather used to say, "Ignorance isn't bliss when there's information you dismiss."

It's the whole point behind the Iron Curtain and radio-free Europe.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by Theemile   » Thu Aug 20, 2020 2:53 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote: I would think the subject of Jeremy X is personal. The MA can't have him being an example to all the slaves on Darius. And if word also gets back to them he has set up a haven on Torch for them, the slaves can become rebellious. He's a mote in the Master Race's eye and a sign to the galaxy they don't have control of their slaves, castes or this Master Race notion, like I preached for at least a million millennia. I agree they may not go out of the way for him, but if opportunity knocks . . .

Then again, there's the Martyr issue too, which could plague the MA.

Leaving aside the question of how such information could begin to circulate; it is my understanding that workers on Darius do not think of themselves as slaves. So far as they know, they are valued members of a meritocracy, who can go as far as their intelligence will take them. Unfortunately there are the Alphas, Betas and Gammas that outshine them; but that is just the natural order of things.

I thought it was stated somewhere, that they did not even know that their administration had been involved in the genetic slave trade.


That's pretty much true - they are a population kept in an isolated bubble and fed off a limited menu. They have no access to the outside world and rely on the limited news they are given.
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