GA-League War

cthia wrote:Without Apollo the GA is dead. The SL is an arrogant gorilla. But still a gorilla. What are you going to do when the amped up gorilla makes a beeline for your Home System, and you have no Apollo? And no significant accel advantage.

The SL is not going to fight a protracted war. Do you blame them?

17% - 25% accel advantage, ton for ton, is hardly negligible (though it's far short of the 55% improvement we see by the Invictus-class in SftS)

Even allowing for their larger size, and using the lower 17% number from other 1914 ships (not the higher accel listed in HoS), that gives a Medusa-class SD(P) about full power 468 gees accel vs the smaller Scientist's 423 gees.
(And if the RMN had already adopted 90% as safe power level, like Haven already had, it gets even worse. The Medusa would normally be pulling 421 gees vs the Scientist at 338 gees)

And totally agreed with Duckk about Apollo being overkill when the SLN missiles can't threaten anybody about around 7-8 million km. (Since in this scenario they don't even have cataphracts; so it's pure single drive missiles and no ability for a usable ballistic segment)

The question still stands, was Honor able to invade Sol in 1914-15, after things completely fell into the crapper?

cthia wrote:The question still stands, was Honor able to invade Sol in 1914-15, after things completely fell into the crapper?

Why not? The only difference is that due to the lower technology compared to 1921 she would use deadly force and destroy those ships rather than show up with overwhelming force and force their surrender.

In the Battle of Sol, the SLN had ~300 SD's deployed in Sol, 500+ BC's and 500 or more Lighter vessels. Granted a lot of the BC's and lighter combatants might have been gathering for the SLN offensive but even assuming that they were the permanent Fleet protecting the Capital that is still not an overwhelming force, especially considering their are separated in two(Earth and Naval Station Ganymede).

Attack with an Alliance fleet made up of 300 SD's and 80 SD(P)'s backed by 60 CLAC's and a few hundred Destroyers and Cruisers...it will be a massacre, it wont be as one sided as 1921 tech but it will still be a victory.

The Alliance SD(P)'s are snipers, they can fire on defending SD's from far outside their range and keep the out of SLN effective range for as long as they need to, then by the time the SLN SD's get close enough for contact with the Alliance SD's they would have taken a massive beating and would not present too much of a problem.

Recreate the Battle of Barnett in Sol but send in 6,000 LAC's against Ganymede, it would be immense shock to the SLN if you managed to damage or destroy the entire Fleet picketing Ganymede with mere LAC's in front of the SLN senior leadership, it would be pretty hard to continue the war when 3% of your SD's and 2.5% of your entire BC strength is wiped out by the equivalent tonnage of 18 SD's in LAC's, once they wipe out the Ganymede picket they go into all the reserve anchorages and wipe them out to the last ship. At the same time the SD(P)'s would engage the inner system picket, hit them with everything they have packed up by the regular SD's, bring in his colliers to load up more ammo for the SD(P)'s and the SD's and go again. Imagine being able to fire off wave after wave for a total of 390,000 missiles, re-arm and go back to fire off another 390,000 missiles before the SLN SD's can effectively fire off even 1 missile.

cthia wrote:I just think this scenario deals the SL a better hand than they ended up with.

If there was no seceding rats to turn coat and the SLN maintained OPSEC, Filareta could have done some serious damage. If the Manties still knows he's coming and have time to set a trap, maybe.

But a completely surprised MBS would have been in trouble. They wouldn't have been set to throw massive salvos.

Not as much. If the SLN had held opsec and Filareta had arrived unnanounced, Home Fleet would need to scramble to meet him. That might have put Sphinx in jeopardy, depending on the geometry of where Home Fleet was, but not Manticore.

Unlike Theisman and Tourville on the actual first Battle of Manticore, Filareta wouldn't have been imaginative enough to split his forces. He'd have come straight for one of the two planets with all his forces and Home Fleet would respond with overwhelming force from outside his range.

Another aspect is that, without First Manticore and especially without Oyster Bay, I don't think the SLN would have sent Filareta at all. Eleventh Fleet was dispatched because they knew someone had wrecked the infrastructure around the planets, which the SLN assumed could only happen if someone had taken the defences out in the first place. Without Oyster Bay, the SLN knows the defences are intact.

What would influence their decision is their assessment of the quality of those defences. And that came from the Battle of Spindle, which did use Apollo (though not Keyhole II). Terekhov would have needed to launch multiple and smaller salvos of system defence MDMs to get as many SDs. He'd be aboard a Saganami-A, which doesn't have nearly as many control channels as the Jimmy Boy did and his Buttercup-era MDMs wouldn't be as good as the Mk23s. Actually, Mike Henke, who instead of being aboard a Nike-class BC would be on a Reliant-class BC (probably HMS Nike), would be in visible command. They'd have to fire something like 10 salvos to destroy 23 SDs and force Crandall or her successor to surrender.

Does that change the Rajampet's thinking? On one hand, the reports would say the defences are weaker than otherwise. On the other, those defences did manage to take out an entire fleet with nothing more than BCs, in a secondary planet. On the third hand, the SLN was pretty much ignoring the reports from Spindle anyway and there's no reason to assume they'd take them any more seriously now.

Sigs wrote:

cthia wrote:The question still stands, was Honor able to invade Sol in 1914-15, after things completely fell into the crapper?

Why not? The only difference is that due to the lower technology compared to 1921 she would use deadly force and destroy those ships rather than show up with overwhelming force and force their surrender.

Another important factor in this Battle of Sol is who would be in command of the SLN forces. Unlike in the real case, where Rajampet had been eliminated by the MAlign, opening the way for the more competent and willing to compromise Kingsford, it would still be Fleet Admiral Rajampet Rajani running the show. He'd be micromanaging and bungling things along the way.

He would not have accepted a demand for surrender before fighting. So there would be battle between the GF and the SLN forces, again pretty much one-sided because the GF controls the initiative. The only question in my mind is whether a portion of the SLN forces surrenders on their own initiative (effectively mutiny, if not cowardice in face of the enemy).

And if they mutiny after hearing the reasonable terms of the surrender demands, they may join Honor in coming to Earth's orbit and demand the Mandarins' and Rajampet's heads.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Another important factor in this Battle of Sol is who would be in command of the SLN forces. Unlike in the real case, where Rajampet had been eliminated by the MAlign, opening the way for the more competent and willing to compromise Kingsford, it would still be Fleet Admiral Rajampet Rajani running the show. He'd be micromanaging and bungling things along the way.

Kingsford would have been just as arrogant, overconfident and a micromanager if Rajampet were to suddenly die before the battle. Kingsford was reasonable, in large part because he had all the intel they had about the battles and he had a long string of defeats from single ship combat to large fleet on fleet combat. He saw what happened to Filareta when it was 427 SD's of the SLN vs 440 SD(P)'s of the GA and knew that whatever the GA brought to Sol was massive overkill in both numbers and firepower, easy to compromise and see reason when you have no chance of success.


One of the other advantages that the alliance has is that they are bumbling, amateurish, incompetent neobarbs with delusions of being an actual navy in the eyes of the SLN if Spindle and Second Manticore didn't happen. Use that to their advantage. Come out of hyper in the most disorganized blob ever known to man, come out too far from the system, have the senior officer who is the best actor be in charge of the demands of surrender while looking downright terrified. Basically attack Earth the way the SLN expects incompetent neobarbs to attack. Use EW to simulate 200-300 more SD's then they have and let it bleed through that most of those are EW, good enough for neobarbs but not too obvious, same for the LAC's, if you cant get the LACs out of their carriers unnoticed then make a production out of it with a lot of OBVIOUS EW. And if the RHN still has their BBs in reserve and they can be mobilized quickly throw those in for good measure to make it seem like the GA is scraping the barrel and trying to intimidate the SLN with obsolete weapons only neobarbs would use. Send only the BB's and CLACs in the attack formation with the EW so the entire attack force is BB's with skeleton crews, CLAC's and a handful of SD's while the rest of the force is in hyper like Saltash and Lovat. After the LACs demonstrate their firepower on NSG picket by destroying it and the inner fleet is far enough to not be able to avoid contact the GA drops the act, the BB's and every other decoy ship hauls ass back to Beowulf and the GA drops in with in tight formation and opens fire as quickly as possible until the SD(P)'s are empty, the colliers rearm them and they do that again and again until the SLN surrenders, is destroyed or the GA runs out of ammunition.

Sigs wrote:One of the other advantages that the alliance has is that they are bumbling, amateurish, incompetent neobarbs with delusions of being an actual navy in the eyes of the SLN if Spindle and Second Manticore didn't happen. Use that to their advantage. Come out of hyper in the most disorganized blob ever known to man, come out too far from the system, have the senior officer who is the best actor be in charge of the demands of surrender while looking downright terrified.

That might work and might be fun to watch, but is a strategically unsound strategy. If the GA goes for a decapitation strike like that early in the war, then they leave the League mostly intact, which means it'll soon marshal the resources to catch up technologically and then crush the GA with its superior industry.

The GA needs the war to last long enough to put economic pressure on members to secede. If the MAlign isn't interfering, there may be no Buccaneer or Parthian Shot, which helps in convincing members to distrust the central government on Old Chicago, so the GA needs to provide further incentives.

Either way, there must have been sufficient battles prior to an attack on Sol to end the war to make the SLN leadership not buy the bumbling attack by neobarbs.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Sigs wrote:One of the other advantages that the alliance has is that they are bumbling, amateurish, incompetent neobarbs with delusions of being an actual navy in the eyes of the SLN if Spindle and Second Manticore didn't happen. Use that to their advantage. Come out of hyper in the most disorganized blob ever known to man, come out too far from the system, have the senior officer who is the best actor be in charge of the demands of surrender while looking downright terrified.

That might work and might be fun to watch, but is a strategically unsound strategy. If the GA goes for a decapitation strike like that early in the war, then they leave the League mostly intact, which means it'll soon marshal the resources to catch up technologically and then crush the GA with its superior industry.

The GA needs the war to last long enough to put economic pressure on members to secede. If the MAlign isn't interfering, there may be no Buccaneer or Parthian Shot, which helps in convincing members to distrust the central government on Old Chicago, so the GA needs to provide further incentives.

Either way, there must have been sufficient battles prior to an attack on Sol to end the war to make the SLN leadership not buy the bumbling attack by neobarbs.

Attack Sol, destroy infrastructure that is related to the military, take every byte of information from NSG and leave leaving the industry intact... the GA fleet is rearmed and goes on to the next target, splits up into 2 or into 4 task forces and then goes onto the next target(s). The League has if I remember correctly only few shipyards, those systems will be hit first and those shipyards will be put out of commission by capturing them and occupying them. Put a marine battalion or two on board the yards, deploy a picket force and a hell of a lot of missile pods to defend them and leave the civilian industry intact, inform every system that the GA visits that they didn't want the war but the mandarins pushed for the war. They can say whatever they want but when every core system sees that the GA comes in destroys any military infrastructure and leaves everyone and everything else alone it will be that much harder to demonize them. It will happen but it will be harder. Then go after the greed of the core systems, start negotiations with the major corporations in the core and shell to force a shift of their home governments to independence individually or in small nations and give them access to the verge markets and more importantly the industrialization of the verge and protectorates under strict GA guardianship. They leave the League, they make money off of financial investment by the GA and reparations by the League.


Keep in mind that on a number of occasions the mandarins discussed how a number of shell and core systems would love to go their own separate way but wouldn't because of the SLN, and that there were member systems that would be at each others throats if it weren't for the SLN keeping them apart. When the league screws up royally and gets thoruaghly defeated by an alliance 20% their size, loses control of the verge and protectorates and ends up having to pay reparations to the verge and protectorates it would be a hell of a lot of motivation for the core and shell systems with doubt in their minds to jump ship. Give anyone who jumps ship a favoured nation trade deal where junction fees a cut for a period of time and offer them assistance with building up their domestic fleet.


The thing is that there is no taxation within the league members by the League government, if the SLN is destroyed and they have to start from scratch individual systems would be forced to invest money in the league navy, and after the last war they might feel better investing in their own navy and aligning with the GA than investing in rebuilding the SLN and being taxed to death for a round two war 20 or 30 years later.

Sigs wrote:Attack Sol, destroy infrastructure that is related to the military, take every byte of information from NSG and leave leaving the industry intact... the GA fleet is rearmed and goes on to the next target, splits up into 2 or into 4 task forces and then goes onto the next target(s). The League has if I remember correctly only few shipyards, those systems will be hit first and those shipyards will be put out of commission by capturing them and occupying them. Put a marine battalion or two on board the yards, deploy a picket force and a hell of a lot of missile pods to defend them and leave the civilian industry intact, inform every system that the GA visits that they didn't want the war but the mandarins pushed for the war. They can say whatever they want but when every core system sees that the GA comes in destroys any military infrastructure and leaves everyone and everything else alone it will be that much harder to demonize them. It will happen but it will be harder. Then go after the greed of the core systems, start negotiations with the major corporations in the core and shell to force a shift of their home governments to independence individually or in small nations and give them access to the verge markets and more importantly the industrialization of the verge and protectorates under strict GA guardianship. They leave the League, they make money off of financial investment by the GA and reparations by the League.

You're talking about an occupation force. The full GA might have sufficient marines and ships to do that, but it basically commits something equivalent to a full fleet to each of those systems with shipyards (let's say it's 15). I don't think the system governments would secede and form regional governments because the occupation force says you should. Human nature is to resist, so in the short term those independences might be on paper only and, once the occupiers leave, they'd band right back together to seek revenge. The occupation force would need to stay for long enough to actually change the minds of the occupied population, which might be 20 years or more (I was writing "a generation", but in the era of prolong, that is meaningless).

No, Lacoön One and Two are required. In the mean time, given that this is a war with wallers, the fact that the GF is no band of uneducated neobarbs should come through.

Keep in mind that on a number of occasions the mandarins discussed how a number of shell and core systems would love to go their own separate way but wouldn't because of the SLN, and that there were member systems that would be at each others throats if it weren't for the SLN keeping them apart. When the league screws up royally and gets thoruaghly defeated by an alliance 20% their size, loses control of the verge and protectorates and ends up having to pay reparations to the verge and protectorates it would be a hell of a lot of motivation for the core and shell systems with doubt in their minds to jump ship. Give anyone who jumps ship a favoured nation trade deal where junction fees a cut for a period of time and offer them assistance with building up their domestic fleet.

The thing is that there is no taxation within the league members by the League government, if the SLN is destroyed and they have to start from scratch individual systems would be forced to invest money in the league navy, and after the last war they might feel better investing in their own navy and aligning with the GA than investing in rebuilding the SLN and being taxed to death for a round two war 20 or 30 years later.

True, but nothing unites opposing political factions better than a common, external enemy. The GA cannot afford to become that. That's why I am saying the GA needs time to show that it isn't the common enemy, the mandarins, the OFS and the corrupt SLN are.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
You're talking about an occupation force. The full GA might have sufficient marines and ships to do that, but it basically commits something equivalent to a full fleet to each of those systems with shipyards (let's say it's 15). I don't think the system governments would secede and form regional governments because the occupation force says you should. Human nature is to resist, so in the short term those independences might be on paper only and, once the occupiers leave, they'd band right back together to seek revenge. The occupation force would need to stay for long enough to actually change the minds of the occupied population, which might be 20 years or more (I was writing "a generation", but in the era of prolong, that is meaningless).

No, Lacoön One and Two are required. In the mean time, given that this is a war with wallers, the fact that the GF is no band of uneducated neobarbs should come through.

It is occupying their naval bases and shipyards. It wont be that many as in the books I believe they mentioned the League has only about half a dozen yards and is building a handful of SD's every year for the reserve and to replace their oldest active ships. Occupy their shipyards, occupy their naval bases after destroying their fleet. The Mandarins can say a lot of things, they can call the GA monsters, problem for them is that if the GA defeats the SLN, occupies their shipyards and proceeds to leave the rest of the people and industry in the occupied systems alone would speak volumes in and of itself.

The loyalty isn't there, if there aren't any atrocities to cling to people will be very unlikely to seek revenge if there wasn't noticeable difference under a GA occupation and life under the League.

True, but nothing unites opposing political factions better than a common, external enemy. The GA cannot afford to become that. That's why I am saying the GA needs time to show that it isn't the common enemy, the mandarins, the OFS and the corrupt SLN are.

Problem with that is that the SLN is technologically inferior at the start but you never know if they come up with some game changer weapon or ship design and while the GA is taking the slow and steady approach of convincing and winning hearts and minds the SLN is building up a knockout blow. Haven kept staying within shouting distance of RMN technology and they had a hell of a lot less resources than the League.