GA response to SL attempts to prevent seccessions

kzt wrote:

munroburton wrote:The Mandarins' authority is dropping like a rock. I think it's far more likely there will eventually be attempts to remove them. Possibly a Restoration as above, a "Colonels' coup" or most likely in my opinion, Mesan assassins. By then it will be too late and will simply add to the confusion.

I could easily see a SL marine led coup that essentially shoots the top 2-3 tiers of the bureaucracy as being hopeless corrupt and puts someone in place who intends to fix things. This would likely not be good for the SEM...

The historical record on militaries who take over to fix things is often that the society in question is now mounted on the vertical roof supports with helical fasteners -- there is a shorter way to say this. Military organizations tend to have no idea how the civilian side of things work, and generate terrible results.

On the other hand if the illustrious author wants to make them a good guy side, they could rapidly move over to peace.

Hi PeterZ, KZT,

A major difference between the SL and the UN, is that the SL has a huge treasury department that collects vast taxes and fees, and supports a currency, the Solarian Credit, accepted just about everywhere, while spending incredible sums every T-year by the standards of most protectorates and the verge though tiny by the standards of the the core worlds {how many such spend 20-30% of the system GSP?

Then given that two thirds of the SL have only LAC's for self Defense, I wonder how many members use the solarian credit rather than maintain their own currency.

Even if its only a few to several hundred, and concentrated in the shells, where some may be still dominated by transtellars, they are rather vulnerable if anything happens to the SL.

On another point, at the end of chapter 9 in SoV, we have Harahap claiming the Hauptman cartel is willing to invest M$15-20 Million in Loomis, which is about 60-70 million Loomis credits, if he has the exchange rate right, indicating how debased Loomis's currency has become, given our experience the last few centuries.

Given the fun Lois McMaster Bujold had with currency exchange rates in "The Warrior's Apprentice", one can understand the preference for the transtellars to use solarian credits as much as possible, in part because they've ruined so many system economies and their currencies with their plundering.

From the pearls on the SL/SLN/s financial resources of Oct 9 1998, we learn the background and reasoning of the SL founders, and how the bureaucrats are trying to circumvent those income restrictions in their budget battles that the SLN was losing.

On a another topic, from June 19, 1998; on the "league versus the SEM: who declares war on who", RFC baldly states "that the SL would find it extraordinarily difficult to legally declare war on anyone".

Nothing really new there, but that does seems rather categorical, and of course the mandarins are ignoring any and all legal [constitutional] restrictions in order to maintain their power.

Those pearls may be old, but they illustrate RFC's thinking then, and help illuminate how we got to our current textev.

We're down to around 7-8 monthes or less for UH, and I'm hoping for more definite dates for it and the other books soon.

Best wishes to both of you,

L

PeterZ wrote:

kzt wrote:quote="PeterZ"
The Protectorates operate as part of the SL. They are simply not members with representatives in the Chamber of Stars. Their economy operates using Solarian Credits. The transstellars make money from these systems not simply because they buy export items, but also because they sell finished goods to them and keep the economy captive. OFS and the transstellars force the protectorate states to buy from SL sources either through imports or through SL owned local manufactories. The transstellars also finance the protectorates capital needs. All those profits in Solarian Credits go back to Sol or the transstellars' coffers.
No dbs, not cash transfers.quote
The SL is the UN, not the EU. It's not a nation that issues currency. There are assorted currencies used that are considered strong currencies. For example the chips issued by the major SL banks, but this is not official SL tender, they are Banco de Madrid tender. It's considered a very useful currency because everyone accepts it at a reasonably uniform rate. And there are other currencies that are not considered strong currencies that are widely accepted by everyone, like say the money issued by the puppet government of a planet enslaved by OFS.

Not sure I recall the SL doesn't issue currency. Let's go with it for the sake of discussion.

A transstellar won't use the local currency of a protectorate. The OFS governor will adopt whichever currency is best for the transstellar. That currency will be one of the reserve currencies. This forces the local system to borrow from the stransstellar and prevents any local currency from gaining any traction. By removing the locals ability to issue currency, the transstellars control the capital, labor AND production. Pure captive ecoconmy.

So they will be flush with non-Zimbabwe dollars when the GA arrives. Nationalize the transstellars' accounts and they ca do business with the good guys.

PeterZ wrote:Are their Solarian courts dealing with interstellar issues or are those issues simply a matter for the bureaucracy to rule on? For all we know the courts with jurisdiction over federal laws are locally appointed to administer to their region. Any legalities involving international law within the SL appear to be addressed with agency regulations/rulings, not judicial ones. If I recall correctly Manticoran jurisprudence regarding interstellar issues is the gold standard in the galaxy. That makes sense if the SL doesn't have a robust legal system dealing with interstellar law.

This is also an area of contention that I already tried to breach with my post admonishing Beowulf with possibly putting the cart before the horse since they are basing their right or cause to secede on the League's illegal and aggressive actions, which seems to constitute a conflict of interest and a bit premature, as I penned before.

Which is all about why I included the definition of plebiscite. Not because I was challenging anyone's intellect, but to point out that in no way does a plebiscite indict the League. It seems that the address of the plebiscite should be...

"We have convened to determine if we shall secede, if and when, it is ascertained whether the League is unilaterally acting without benefit of adhering to their Constitution."

What going to happen to the SLN/SLMC/SLG is military Darwinism.

cthia wrote:This is also an area of contention that I already tried to breach with my post admonishing Beowulf with possibly putting the cart before the horse since they are basing their right or cause to secede on the League's illegal and aggressive actions, which seems to constitute a conflict of interest and a bit premature, as I penned before.

Which is all about why I included the definition of plebiscite. Not because I was challenging anyone's intellect, but to point out that in no way does a plebiscite indict the League. It seems that the address of the plebiscite should be...

"We have convened to determine if we shall secede, if and when, it is ascertained whether the League is unilaterally acting without benefit of adhering to their Constitution."

You are rather incorrect. They are basing their right on the explicit permission in the SL Constitution, not on the legality of the Mandarin's actions. The actions leading to the vote do not in any way affect the legality. They could do it for any reason at all - "We just decided that the SL flag is an offensive color, so we are leaving" would be technically valid, though unlikely to actually get enough votes.

As such, your proposed alteration is absolutely unnecessary.

cthia wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Are their Solarian courts dealing with interstellar issues or are those issues simply a matter for the bureaucracy to rule on? For all we know the courts with jurisdiction over federal laws are locally appointed to administer to their region. Any legalities involving international law within the SL appear to be addressed with agency regulations/rulings, not judicial ones. If I recall correctly Manticoran jurisprudence regarding interstellar issues is the gold standard in the galaxy. That makes sense if the SL doesn't have a robust legal system dealing with interstellar law.

This is also an area of contention that I already tried to breach with my post admonishing Beowulf with possibly putting the cart before the horse since they are basing their right or cause to secede on the League's illegal and aggressive actions, which seems to constitute a conflict of interest and a bit premature, as I penned before.

Which is all about why I included the definition of plebiscite. Not because I was challenging anyone's intellect, but to point out that in no way does a plebiscite indict the League. It seems that the address of the plebiscite should be...

"We have convened to determine if we shall secede, if and when, it is ascertained whether the League is unilaterally acting without benefit of adhering to their Constitution."

That was more or less why the American Revolutionary War kicked off.

lyonheart wrote:Hi PeterZ, KZT,

A major difference between the SL and the UN, is that the SL has a huge treasury department that collects vast taxes and fees, and supports a currency, the Solarian Credit, accepted just about everywhere, while spending incredible sums every T-year by the standards of most protectorates and the verge though tiny by the standards of the the core worlds {how many such spend 20-30% of the system GSP?

Then given that two thirds of the SL have only LAC's for self Defense, I wonder how many members use the solarian credit rather than maintain their own currency.

Even if its only a few to several hundred, and concentrated in the shells, where some may be still dominated by transtellars, they are rather vulnerable if anything happens to the SL.

On another point, at the end of chapter 9 in SoV, we have Harahap claiming the Hauptman cartel is willing to invest M$15-20 Million in Loomis, which is about 60-70 million Loomis credits, if he has the exchange rate right, indicating how debased Loomis's currency has become, given our experience the last few centuries.

Given the fun Lois McMaster Bujold had with currency exchange rates in "The Warrior's Apprentice", one can understand the preference for the transtellars to use solarian credits as much as possible, in part because they've ruined so many system economies and their currencies with their plundering.

From the pearls on the SL/SLN/s financial resources of Oct 9 1998, we learn the background and reasoning of the SL founders, and how the bureaucrats are trying to circumvent those income restrictions in their budget battles that the SLN was losing.

On a another topic, from June 19, 1998; on the "league versus the SEM: who declares war on who", RFC baldly states "that the SL would find it extraordinarily difficult to legally declare war on anyone".

Nothing really new there, but that does seems rather categorical, and of course the mandarins are ignoring any and all legal [constitutional] restrictions in order to maintain their power.

Those pearls may be old, but they illustrate RFC's thinking then, and help illuminate how we got to our current textev.

We're down to around 7-8 monthes or less for UH, and I'm hoping for more definite dates for it and the other books soon.

Best wishes to both of you,

L

I guess the realization that dispatch boats carry interstellar financial transactions brought the peril of the Mandarins front and center. It doesn't matter what they want. The inability of sending dispatch boats with cash transfers and payments means there will be Solarian Credits spread randomly around the SL. That uneven distribution will mean regions will face inflation, hyper inflation and depression depending on where the boats are stuck. Sure they can be sent to their original destination. More likely they will deposit their transfers in the nearest place where the proper recipients has an account. Then the db will seek other more immediate tasks.

Your post confirms my belief that the Protectorates operate using Solarian Credits and Verge systems use their own currency, Lyonheart. Which further firms up my belief that the Protectorates will be flush with cash the over taxed dispatch boats haven't gotten around to moving to the central headquarters of the transstellars.

The SL federal government can't collect their fees. Rather they can collect their fees, but don't have enough boats to actually transfer those funds into their coffers. Their only source of funds will be the Solarian Member systems within relatively easy reach. The transit time and sheer numbers of Protectorates means a very large amount of funds will be waiting transit. Every Protectorate the GA visits means SL fees repatriated to the newly liberated star nation. Fees that may well be used to purchase LACs and pod launched DDMs to defend their new liberty.

Toss in the vastly greater cost to operate interstellar trade in both time and in the amount of currency to support, and many Core system will wonder why bother at all? If they don't want to continue the trade, why keep the SL at all?

No matter what the Mandarins wish to accomplish, the financial turbulence will blow the wheels off their bus real soon. Now, they could repurpose the FF BCs to make the credit transfers. There are certainly enough of them. Unfortunately, FF BCs are targets for the GA. They won't last very long at all. Almost all the financial problems go away with the opening of the WH network. The network will open if the Mandarins talk to the GA. They refuse to do so. They are gone real soon.

zyffyr wrote:

cthia wrote:This is also an area of contention that I already tried to breach with my post admonishing Beowulf with possibly putting the cart before the horse since they are basing their right or cause to secede on the League's illegal and aggressive actions, which seems to constitute a conflict of interest and a bit premature, as I penned before.

Which is all about why I included the definition of plebiscite. Not because I was challenging anyone's intellect, but to point out that in no way does a plebiscite indict the League. It seems that the address of the plebiscite should be...

"We have convened to determine if we shall secede, if and when, it is ascertained whether the League is unilaterally acting without benefit of adhering to their Constitution."

You are rather incorrect. They are basing their right on the explicit permission in the SL Constitution, not on the legality of the Mandarin's actions. The actions leading to the vote do not in any way affect the legality. They could do it for any reason at all - "We just decided that the SL flag is an offensive color, so we are leaving" would be technically valid, though unlikely to actually get enough votes.

As such, your proposed alteration is absolutely unnecessary.

A circular argument.

"Not in the middle of a war and in accomplice with mine enemy."

Beowulf was bad. And Beowulf has need to soothe the savage beast that paints it a traitor. Or it may be hit with the effect that the lack of protection affords one who is now bereft of the one protection afforded by the 800# beast that enforces the edict.

Which cues another question I've been meaning to ask.

The right to secede is included in the Constitution. But is there also a written or even an unwritten clause regarding loyalty in the face of a formal declaration of war? It seems that there is, since the letter of the law seems to hinge on whether the League has formally declared war. *

Which all begets a circular argument. Which brings us right back to the possibility that...

"Beowulf was bad."

And it may not be what the law says, but what her would be accusers say.

Which brings me to question #2.

We have all concluded—well I only reluctantly cast my vote—way back when the forum held its own plebiscite as to whether the RMN should attack the League in an almost unanimous decision to 1—and I'm not admitting to being that single holdout—that such an attack would only serve to rally the troops and stop the League from fracturing.

If the League's government decides that Beowulf is indeed traitorously bad and attacks and kills many innocent civilians, accidentally, by MA design, or by planned happenstance (LOL) then would that finally green light an RMN attack against the League even if and considering that the League's own government has legally concluded that Beowulf was traitorous?

* Which then of course implies and calls attention to the fact that the force entering Beowulf's system and requesting admittance through Beowulf's junction would have had to have its request granted. Regardless of the consequences. Which pulls again at the frayed thread of the League's contention that...

"Beowulf was bad. Very very bad."

Hi PeterZ,

We have the curious scene of the courts going after TIY and the SLN officers that didn't scrap the Monican BC's, as directed by the SL's Attorney General, Brangwen Ronayne; which at least when the newsies are watching seem to be doing a decent job, this is curious given how corrupt and politicized our own courts have become in the last few decades [not that they were that great before] compared to several centuries for the SL.

It implies the SL's founders saw no such major role for a legal adjudication system in the league they were creating, ie they didn't want a higher or superior court to rule over them [or to overrule them] and eventually reduce their independnce.

Certainly we've seen no sign or mention of any SL supreme Court etc, so its never been a major independent player like the departments of the five mandarins; State, Interior, Treasury, Commerce, and Education and Information.

Given how important the USA's DoJ has become, one would expect that the SL's would have been swallowed by one of the mandarins or sat in its own chair as at least an equal, but no such thing apparently happened.

What I suspect is that the DoJ and its head, the Attorney General's office is a second tier bureaucracy, like the SLN; close but not quite close enough to the top tier.

So how many other such second or third tier bureaucracies are also out there that are not part of the mandarins' direct control sections?

The Manticore Admiralty court is indeed highly respected, but its powers are understandably rather restricted to mainly shipping and trade matters, ie 'naval' cases, which most people [ie 99.9% of interstellar humanity] don't know or care much about, however broad the MMM etc sails through the Solarian League seas.

All the best,

L

PeterZ wrote:Are their Solarian courts dealing with interstellar issues or are those issues simply a matter for the bureaucracy to rule on? For all we know the courts with jurisdiction over federal laws are locally appointed to administer to their region. Any legalities involving international law within the SL appear to be addressed with agency regulations/rulings, not judicial ones. If I recall correctly Manticoran jurisprudence regarding interstellar issues is the gold standard in the galaxy. That makes sense if the SL doesn't have a robust legal system dealing with interstellar law.

cthia wrote:This is also an area of contention that I already tried to breach with my post admonishing Beowulf with possibly putting the cart before the horse since they are basing their right or cause to secede on the League's illegal and aggressive actions, which seems to constitute a conflict of interest and a bit premature, as I penned before.

Which is all about why I included the definition of plebiscite. Not because I was challenging anyone's intellect, but to point out that in no way does a plebiscite indict the League. It seems that the address of the plebiscite should be...

"We have convened to determine if we shall secede, if and when, it is ascertained whether the League is unilaterally acting without benefit of adhering to their Constitution."

zyffyr wrote:You are rather incorrect. They are basing their right on the explicit permission in the SL Constitution, not on the legality of the Mandarin's actions. The actions leading to the vote do not in any way affect the legality. They could do it for any reason at all - "We just decided that the SL flag is an offensive color, so we are leaving" would be technically valid, though unlikely to actually get enough votes.

As such, your proposed alteration is absolutely unnecessary.

cthia wrote:A circular argument.

"Not in the middle of a war and in accomplice with mine enemy."

Beowulf was bad. And Beowulf has need to soothe the savage beast that paints it a traitor. Or it may be hit with the effect that the lack of protection affords one who is now bereft of the one protection afforded by the 800# beast that enforces the edict.

A) The only (de facto) shooting war is the GA against the Solarain League. This is a one way war.
B) The Solarian League is not at war, until the League Assembly votes out a declaration of war. As of right now, the best they can be said to be doing is they are conducting 'police actions', defending the League under Article 7. So says the League constitution, and so say the Mandarins.
C) If you say that the League is at war, then Beowulf has every right to leave the League, lawfully as enshrined in the League constitution, as well as the moral right and obligation to do so. Beowulf has the right and duty to oppose the Mesan Alignment and all those supporting the Alignment. The Solarian League and the Mandarins, knowingly and unknowingly, are supporting the Mesan Alignment, and as a result are putting the League in danger of war crimes. Beowulf, knowing this, would be in itself guilty of knowingly (aiding and abetting) war crimes, if, and only if, it did NOT leave the League in accordance with its right to do so under the League constitution.

Therefore, "Not in the middle of a war and in accomplice with mine enemy." under the circumstances actually existing means:

A) There is no war as yet with the League against the GA. "Not in the middle of a war" does not apply.
B) Since the League is not at war with the GA, "and in accomplice with mine enemy" does not apply.

cthia wrote:
Which cues another question I've been meaning to ask.

The right to secede is included in the Constitution. But is there also a written or even an unwritten clause regarding loyalty in the face of a formal declaration of war? It seems that there is, since the letter of the law seems to hinge on whether the League has formally declared war. *

Which all begets a circular argument. Which brings us right back to the possibility that...

"Beowulf was bad."

And it may not be what the law says, but what her would be accusers say.

Circular argument, indeed.

A) If, and only if, there was a hypothetical written clause regarding loyalty in the face of a formal declaration of war, such a clause would only take effect if the League Assembly voted for it, with no single member casting a veto against it.
B) If Beowulf is not permitted to secede by the League as its right under the League constitution, Beowulf will veto the proposed declaration of war against the GA. If Beowulf vetoes the proposed declaration of war against the GA, no state of war exists and the hypothetical written clause regarding loyalty does not take effect.
C) If Beowulf is permitted to secede from the League as guaranteed under the League constitution, Beowulf is not bound by League law, except any treaties it may enter into with the League subsequent to its leaving the League. The hypothetical written clause regarding loyalty would take effect, but would apply only to League members. Since Beowulf is no longer a League member, the hypothetical written clause would not apply to Beowulf.
D) In a legal context, written law trumps unwritten customs and laws. Written fundamental (constitutional) law trumps all other law.

cthia wrote:Which brings me to question #2.

We have all concluded—well I only reluctantly cast my vote—way back when the forum held its own plebiscite as to whether the RMN should attack the League in an almost unanimous decision to 1—and I'm not admitting to being that single holdout—that such an attack would only serve to rally the troops and stop the League from fracturing.

If the League's government decides that Beowulf is indeed traitorously bad and attacks and kills many innocent civilians, accidentally, by MA design, or by planned happenstance (LOL) then would that finally green light an RMN attack against the League even if and considering that the League's own government has legally concluded that Beowulf was traitorous?

* Which then of course implies and calls attention to the fact that the force entering Beowulf's system and requesting admittance through Beowulf's junction would have had to have its request granted. Regardless of the consequences. Which pulls again at the frayed thread of the League's contention that...

"Beowulf was bad. Very very bad."