Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 27 guests

?

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: ?
Post by tlb   » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:09 pm

tlb
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4594
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:34 am

Jonathan_S wrote: The mobile forces could flee if overwhelming force showed up to reclaim the terminus. A fort would have little choice but to stand and fight - but the light units used could run away - preserving RMN lives. Similarly, since this was a short term expedient there was no need to waste lives attempting to hold any given terminus. The SLN would have to spend months and much of its battle fleet chasing cruisers off of all the captured termini. And then keep those forces there to prevent the cruises from just coming back and closing the routes again. (Leaving Battle Fleet scattered into small packets far out of mutual support distance - a suicidal option when facing even a near-peer enemy; much less one whose heavy units can steamroll yours)

Still, if someone built a self deployable fort I doubt it'd close a wormhole down for hours. To close it down for even a single hour would require a fort massing 48 metatons - almost six and a half times an Invictus-class SD(P)!!!

I have not studied how long wormhole terminals are shut down as a function of mass, so I am not surprised that I got that wrong. But a self deployable fort could use the wormhole to flee as easy as any other mobile unit. However it is not clear how much force the SLN would have to muster before they could force a RMN fort to flee.
Top
Re: ?
Post by kzt   » Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:34 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11360
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Theemile wrote:
What Laocoon forts? The wormholes taken in Laocoon were captured and held by mobile forces. No "permanent" forces were put in place for laocoon.

Good, I'm not the only person going 'huh?'

The mobile forces at the WHs were the weak point of the plan, and of course nobody acted against them.
Top
Re: ?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:03 pm

Loren Pechtel
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1324
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:24 pm

cthia wrote:I find it amusing that all of you continue to call this a drive-by. Two hours in Orbit, uncontested. And it's still a drive-by. Honor never entered orbit at all, in the Sol System. And likewise, as with Honor, all enemy warships in the system are still quite busy.


Honor was making a surrender demand of the fleet as well as the planet. If the fleet surrenders the planet is now undefended and can be called upon to surrender. She had demonstrated overwhelming military superiority, the remaining units knew she could simply sit outside the hyper limit and smash them with no reasonable possibility of shooting back.

We have seen other surrender demands to fleets--the successor to Bing surrendered, Filartia surrendered. Thiesman surrendered.

The Malign has made its point.


No, because they snuck into orbit rather than actually face the defenders.

What we are saying is that it's not the exact position in space that's the issue, but the military situation.
Top
Re: ?
Post by Theemile   » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:07 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5271
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

tlb wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote: The mobile forces could flee if overwhelming force showed up to reclaim the terminus. A fort would have little choice but to stand and fight - but the light units used could run away - preserving RMN lives. Similarly, since this was a short term expedient there was no need to waste lives attempting to hold any given terminus. The SLN would have to spend months and much of its battle fleet chasing cruisers off of all the captured termini. And then keep those forces there to prevent the cruises from just coming back and closing the routes again. (Leaving Battle Fleet scattered into small packets far out of mutual support distance - a suicidal option when facing even a near-peer enemy; much less one whose heavy units can steamroll yours)

Still, if someone built a self deployable fort I doubt it'd close a wormhole down for hours. To close it down for even a single hour would require a fort massing 48 metatons - almost six and a half times an Invictus-class SD(P)!!!

I have not studied how long wormhole terminals are shut down as a function of mass, so I am not surprised that I got that wrong. But a self deployable fort could use the wormhole to flee as easy as any other mobile unit. However it is not clear how much force the SLN would have to muster before they could force a RMN fort to flee.


No one is discussing the time and resources it would take to build a deployable fort. Each would take more time to build than an SD, and would use an SD build slip to do so. All the SLN war has taken around a year from the time of the destruction of the 3 Destroyers to the capture of Earth. Assuming you could build them (and the savings of the alpha nodes and the hyper generator mass that would be needed to make them deloyable add to the extra capability of the forts) when would they have been built, and who would build them?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: ?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:17 pm

Loren Pechtel
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1324
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:24 pm

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Including clauses in the surrender terms to turn over certain people -- ostensibly for execution, with or without a show trial -- could be a violation of the Deneb Accords, though. But that's not what the GA did: they ordered arrest and I assume it was under Solarian Law, since there was no mention of extradition.


Eridani violations. They are being held accountable for the Beowulf attacks. Yes, they didn't know about the bombs but you're responsible for what your comrades in arms do. Not to mention their other actions against civilians.
Top
Re: ?
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Mon Apr 20, 2020 9:19 pm

Loren Pechtel
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1324
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2015 8:24 pm

kzt wrote:
Theemile wrote:
What Laocoon forts? The wormholes taken in Laocoon were captured and held by mobile forces. No "permanent" forces were put in place for laocoon.

Good, I'm not the only person going 'huh?'

The mobile forces at the WHs were the weak point of the plan, and of course nobody acted against them.


Nobody acted against them because they could do an awful lot of damage and then hyper out. Going after them was a horrible waste of men and ships.
Top
Re: ?
Post by kzt   » Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:39 pm

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 11360
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Loren Pechtel wrote:Nobody acted against them because they could do an awful lot of damage and then hyper out. Going after them was a horrible waste of men and ships.

Sure, it's risky. Vs any other type of combat, not so risky. Given the known issues of trying to maintain a force at a high degree of readiness for months it's likely that you'll be able to catch them in a less than ideal situation. As you are concentrating an arbitrary amount of firepower against a small force and can get into, at the very worst, SDM range, the odds are pretty good you'll at least put one out of action.
Top
Re: ?
Post by cthia   » Tue Apr 21, 2020 7:57 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Loren Pechtel wrote:
cthia wrote:I find it amusing that all of you continue to call this a drive-by. Two hours in Orbit, uncontested. And it's still a drive-by. Honor never entered orbit at all, in the Sol System. And likewise, as with Honor, all enemy warships in the system are still quite busy.


Honor was making a surrender demand of the fleet as well as the planet. If the fleet surrenders the planet is now undefended and can be called upon to surrender. She had demonstrated overwhelming military superiority, the remaining units knew she could simply sit outside the hyper limit and smash them with no reasonable possibility of shooting back.

We have seen other surrender demands to fleets--the successor to Bing surrendered, Filartia surrendered. Thiesman surrendered.

The Malign has made its point.


No, because they snuck into orbit rather than actually face the defenders.

What we are saying is that it's not the exact position in space that's the issue, but the military situation.


Indeed. The MaLign are about to show the GA exactly what that military situation really is, and that resistance is futile. How many people die depends on Manticore. "Pour your own poison, Manticore."

I see the disconnect. Everyone thinks that since the MaLign only gave Manticore two hours to surrender is because they couldn't hold the orbitals longer.

UH UH!

They just have places to go, and heads of state to threaten.

BTW, the threat of bombardment ALWAYS exists when an attacker holds your orbitals, demands your surrender; and you get uppity.

Is anyone telling me the amped up Honor in UH wasn't prepared to go the whole nine? PLEASE! Honor was JUST HOPING someone would "MAKE MY DAY." Honor was ticking so hard, the crew thought a time bomb was hidden somewhere on the bridge.

My earlier point about Honor, is that she demanded surrender BEFORE she entered orbit. And that at least the MaLign are a bit more courteous, and less disrespectful. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: ?
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:29 am

Galactic Sapper
Captain of the List

Posts: 524
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2018 1:11 pm

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Including clauses in the surrender terms to turn over certain people -- ostensibly for execution, with or without a show trial -- could be a violation of the Deneb Accords, though. But that's not what the GA did: they ordered arrest and I assume it was under Solarian Law, since there was no mention of extradition.


Honor Harrington wrote:First, the unelected bureaucrats who created and drove this conflict will be arrested by the League and surrendered to us to be tried for crimes against humanity on a scale the galaxy has not seen in over a thousand years.
Top
Re: ?
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:36 am

Brigade XO
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3220
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: KY

tlb wrote:
The Detweiler Plan is for the Renaissance Association to achieve dominance in the galaxy; not for forces from Darius to go on a campaign of conquest. If that plan fails, then overt military action might result; but until failure is evident any force projection from Darius will be covert and intended to soften opposition to the RA.

Now it is true that both the Malign Plan and the spider drive warships are fragile. The plan is fragile because if it ever became known for whom the RA is fronting, then general revulsion and the RA's military inferiority would prevent success. The spider drive warships are fragile because their only defense against energy beam weapons is stealth.

The plan is already on shaky ground because Manticore and Haven are united and the new Solarian Union should not fragment to the point that core worlds will begin looking for another association to join.


I realize the author isn't likely to do anything like that scenario. Just venting about dancing around options if the Alignment was going to throw off the cloak and just crush opposition.

Consider the options of Manticore if the Alignment does put spider ships like the LDs etc in close enough to be inside the massed RMN fleet and uses it's existing stealth weapons systems to destroy most of what is in the volume that contains Manticore's (and the other two inhabited planets) reestablished stations and manufactureing. You put your mouthpiece in a spider drive ship (or several, nobody can "see" them anyway) just outside the hyper limit and one of them is what broadcasts the surrender demand the same time as a remote deployed by spider next to Manticore does the same thing. Give them an hour (or less) for the Queen to surrender or the government will be decapitated- . No surrender, the government becomes an expanding ball of plasma along with the city (Queen and Government in there) and just what exactly will the Home Fleet etc do if they can't determine where the attacking force is located?
Yeah, difficult. If Queen surrenders, they will be ordered to stand down etc. No surrender, your command authority devolves to local authority- probably commander of Home Fleet -Harrington is going to be at Grayson which is having it's own problmes. Surrrender and stand down or ....not good.
Alignment calls occupation force out of hyper with the clear admonishment that any interference will result on severe responce on the surrender forces and planetside targets.

So, it isn't a drive-by, it's Blitzkrieg and your in Paris but nobody is comming to help...not now, not next month, not next year, not ever.

I would be a despiration move on the part of the Alignment but still available if they find the Plan is truly in the crapper. Or they can try an even lower profile than before Oyster Bay and run their pupeteer plans to help the RA and just set things back by a couple of hundred years while they build the RA into a replacement of the SL "as it was meant to be".
Just think how many books that could be.....:)
Top

Return to Honorverse