What's the chance of a Streek Drive Super Dreadnought?

It doesn't appear that either of you actually read my post.

Zakharra wrote:I can see streak drive being used in couriers and scouts, and some merchantmen before being used in SDs. But at some point, streak drive equipped SDs makes sense since getting to a system to fight a battle faster. The biggest advantage will be with the civilian sector though. Getting goods to market faster makes those ships more profit.

I don't dispute that Streak Drives will eventually be put in SD(P)s. I do NOT believe that they will or should receive first priority because smaller ships can make better use of a Streak Drive. So essentially you're agreeing with me about military ships.

I don't think most civilian ships will utilize streak drives -- they don't take advantage of the greater speeds available to current milspec drives, why would they spend even more for streak drives.

Roguevictory wrote:The ability to get to the target faster or between targets faster is far more valuable then you give it credit for being.

SD(P)s don't need a streak drive because they are not used as quick response forces. Ship types that do operate as quick response forces do need streak drives.

IOW, The ability to move faster in hyper is much more important to the ships that are used in roles that benefit from higher speeds: couriers, scouts and quick response forces, and commerce raiders. None of those roles apply to SDs.

Would it be nice to be in a Fast-SD? You damned betcha it would be nice. It just isn't necessary for SDs.

Weird Harold wrote:SD(P)s don't need a streak drive because they are not used as quick response forces. Ship types that do operate as quick response forces do need streak drives.

Except, y'know, when they are.

Granted, White Haven's relief of Basilisk in response to Icarus and Honor's relief of the Manticoran home system in response to Beatrice required a wormhole junction. And the RMN sent BCs to relieve Yelstin the first time because the immediate threat was one BC, not because BCs were marginally faster.

But Rollins' decision to attack Hancock when he did was made on the basis of a clearly temporary situation; if Parks had streak SDs when he learned about the Argus network, he would have been back at Hancock before Rollins' attack instead of afterward; and in any case the decision to follow-on and attack Seaford was very much a rapid response with SDs. If White Haven had streak SDs (and supply ships) in Buttercup, he could have been at Haven before Cromarty was assassinated. If Benjamin and High Admiral Matthews had streak SDs just before Thunderbolt, they could have reinforced more than Trevor's Star on short notice (like, say, Grendelsbane). Heck, Janacek could have redeployed the RMN to some degree if he'd been able to.

drothgery wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:SD(P)s don't need a streak drive because they are not used as quick response forces. Ship types that do operate as quick response forces do need streak drives.

Except, y'know, when they are.

Granted, White Haven's relief of Basilisk in response to Icarus and Honor's relief of the Manticoran home system in response to Beatrice required a wormhole junction. And the RMN sent BCs to relieve Yelstin the first time because the immediate threat was one BC, not because BCs were marginally faster.

But Rollins' decision to attack Hancock when he did was made on the basis of a clearly temporary situation; if Parks had streak SDs when he learned about the Argus network, he would have been back at Hancock before Rollins' attack instead of afterward; and in any case the decision to follow-on and attack Seaford was very much a rapid response with SDs. If White Haven had streak SDs (and supply ships) in Buttercup, he could have been at Haven before Cromarty was assassinated. If Benjamin and High Admiral Matthews had streak SDs just before Thunderbolt, they could have reinforced more than Trevor's Star on short notice (like, say, Grendelsbane). Heck, Janacek could have redeployed the RMN to some degree if he'd been able to.

And if White Haven had had streak drive SDs on the campaign to take Trevor's Star he should have had a few more SDs available for each battle because less of them would be "wasted" at any one time shuttling back to the rear for refit and repair.

Or alternatively his force levels could have been kept the same, but not run the ships as deeply into the red on delayed maintenance and upgrades. Which sould have allowed 8th fleet to be formed sooner; quite possibly denying McQueen and the Peeps the time to get their balance and set up Operation Icarus.

drothgery wrote:...if Parks had streak SDs ...

If wishes were horses...

It would have been nice-to-have if Adm Parks had Streak Drives, but it wasn't a necessity. Where Streak Drive would have made a difference was in the scouts and couriers that were sent out to regroup his forces.

The fact that SDs have, on occasion, moved quickly enough that personnel on shore-leave had to chase their ships down to rejoin, doesn't mean that they are deployed with the expectation that they will need to move that quickly.

The times when a streak drive would make a difference in SD re-deployments are a miniscule fraction of the times a streak drive would make a difference in a courier's mission or a scout's reports, or a commerce raider's successful intercept of a convoy.

SDs will eventually get Streak Drives, but existing SDs can't be retrofitted and new SDs are too expensive to build just for streak capability because it doesn't add any combat capability.

Weird Harold wrote:

drothgery wrote:...if Parks had streak SDs ...

If wishes were horses...

It would have been nice-to-have if Adm Parks had Streak Drives, but it wasn't a necessity. Where Streak Drive would have made a difference was in the scouts and couriers that were sent out to regroup his forces.

The fact that SDs have, on occasion, moved quickly enough that personnel on shore-leave had to chase their ships down to rejoin, doesn't mean that they are deployed with the expectation that they will need to move that quickly.

The times when a streak drive would make a difference in SD re-deployments are a miniscule fraction of the times a streak drive would make a difference in a courier's mission or a scout's reports, or a commerce raider's successful intercept of a convoy.

SDs will eventually get Streak Drives, but existing SDs can't be retrofitted and new SDs are too expensive to build just for streak capability because it doesn't add any combat capability.

Some good points about the pros and cons of strategically faster SDs, but isn't the GA coordinating a multinational effort to produce lots of new SD(P)s out of Haven's yards and finish fitting them with Beowulf's Manticoran-designed components, suggesting the GA is prepared to continue warship production?

There's also been a postulated next-generation podnought class with "improved pod deployment points" - this class will probably begin construction as soon as Manticore has rebuilt its yards, which will only take a few years. Plenty of time for Bolthole, augmented by Weyland's survivors, to play around with the layout of this design. And I remember Hamish saying they would have new capital ships in four years - it sounds like they're not content to sit by and rely on what they have, as impressive as it is against Solarians.

In fact, the Solarian League's current situation(not to mention, the consequences of Operation Thunderbolt!) is perfect proof of why one should never be content with currently-deployed hardware.

I guess, Harold, that given the way that the arguments have played out here, my vote is for the strategic speed for the SDPs. Remember the the League is only a short term opponent. What the GA is really doing is gearing up for the Alignment. Since beyond knowledge of streaks and spiders, the Alignment is an almost complete unknown which means they better build the best, most technologically advanced ships they can.

I don't think the politics are going to be the problem Harold seems to anticipate, especially after the Yawatta strike.

Don

drothgery wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:SD(P)s don't need a streak drive because they are not used as quick response forces. Ship types that do operate as quick response forces do need streak drives.

Except, y'know, when they are.

Granted, White Haven's relief of Basilisk in response to Icarus and Honor's relief of the Manticoran home system in response to Beatrice required a wormhole junction. And the RMN sent BCs to relieve Yelstin the first time because the immediate threat was one BC, not because BCs were marginally faster.

But Rollins' decision to attack Hancock when he did was made on the basis of a clearly temporary situation; if Parks had streak SDs when he learned about the Argus network, he would have been back at Hancock before Rollins' attack instead of afterward; and in any case the decision to follow-on and attack Seaford was very much a rapid response with SDs. If White Haven had streak SDs (and supply ships) in Buttercup, he could have been at Haven before Cromarty was assassinated. If Benjamin and High Admiral Matthews had streak SDs just before Thunderbolt, they could have reinforced more than Trevor's Star on short notice (like, say, Grendelsbane). Heck, Janacek could have redeployed the RMN to some degree if he'd been able to.

Drothgery, I won't argue the Parks example, but your Buttercup and Thunderbolt examples are ridiculous, to say the least.

NO Admiral is going to follow a strategy that is based upon an assumption that 'we need to achieve our objectives before the political situation back home goes bollocks up'.

And there was absolutely no way whatsoever for the RMN to reinforce Grendelsbane during Thunderbolt - the star system is simply too distant from Manticore to have managed such a thing. Even if Grendelsbane was as close to Manticore as Grayson, there would have been no time for reinforcements before the Havenites had destroyed the entire star system infrastructure and gone on their merry way.

Weird Harold wrote:It doesn't appear that either of you actually read my post.

Zakharra wrote:I can see streak drive being used in couriers and scouts, and some merchantmen before being used in SDs. But at some point, streak drive equipped SDs makes sense since getting to a system to fight a battle faster. The biggest advantage will be with the civilian sector though. Getting goods to market faster makes those ships more profit.

I don't dispute that Streak Drives will eventually be put in SD(P)s. I do NOT believe that they will or should receive first priority because smaller ships can make better use of a Streak Drive. So essentially you're agreeing with me about military ships.

I don't think most civilian ships will utilize streak drives -- they don't take advantage of the greater speeds available to current milspec drives, why would they spend even more for streak drives.

They will eventually. Military tech will get better and the older style of military drives will be allowed for civilian use, or some enterprising civilian shipbuilders might build their own version of streak drive that is compatible with the military one, but wasn;t handed to them by the military.

Zakharra wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:I don't dispute that Streak Drives will eventually be put in SD(P)s. I do NOT believe that they will or should receive first priority because smaller ships can make better use of a Streak Drive. So essentially you're agreeing with me about military ships.

I don't think most civilian ships will utilize streak drives -- they don't take advantage of the greater speeds available to current milspec drives, why would they spend even more for streak drives.

They will eventually. Military tech will get better and the older style of military drives will be allowed for civilian use, or some enterprising civilian shipbuilders might build their own version of streak drive that is compatible with the military one, but wasn;t handed to them by the military.

If that were true, then freighters would all be using the Theta band already. They aren't, because it isn't cost effective for them to do it. Freighters generally only get up to the Delta band, and some don't even get that high. And it's not because there aren't any civilian drives which can reach the Theta band. The text says that there are a few, mostly high-end passenger ships and freighters with very valuable and/or perishable products. But the added costs of building and maintaining a ship capable of reaching the Theta drive are simply not worth it for most freighters. The Streak drive does not change that equation.

SWM wrote:If that were true, then freighters would all be using the Theta band already. They aren't, because it isn't cost effective for them to do it. Freighters generally only get up to the Delta band, and some don't even get that high. And it's not because there aren't any civilian drives which can reach the Theta band. The text says that there are a few, mostly high-end passenger ships and freighters with very valuable and/or perishable products. But the added costs of building and maintaining a ship capable of reaching the Theta drive are simply not worth it for most freighters. The Streak drive does not change that equation.

Which pretty much says that the cost (whether building or operational or both) of a military hyperdrive-equipped freighter has to be quite a lot higher than a standard civilian hyperdrive; assuming it wasn't working almost entirely in routes covered by wormholes, a shipping line could use significantly fewer ships to cover the same routes with military hyperdrives.