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Question about Beowulf tactics

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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by Weird Harold   » Sat Jan 31, 2015 4:53 pm

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StealthSeeker wrote:But here is another idea. As it is a political problem to have any other navy's ships *SEEN* in orbit around Beowulf, how about we put 50 RMN SD(P)s in hyperspace near Beowulf.


The political problem gets immeasurably worse if any non-Beowulf SDF ships participate in the defense of Beowulf prior to the seccession vote. It won't matter if they're in orbit or waiting in hyper, they would present that political problem. It's probably even pushing things to maintain a picket on the terminus even though that is clearly a Manticoran possession and responsibility.

Even after Beowulf secedes from the Solarian League, having GA ships in the Beowulf system proper is going to be problematic until the SLN demonstrates a need for Beowulf to have a mutual defense alliance with someone.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:09 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
StealthSeeker wrote:But here is another idea. As it is a political problem to have any other navy's ships *SEEN* in orbit around Beowulf, how about we put 50 RMN SD(P)s in hyperspace near Beowulf.


The political problem gets immeasurably worse if any non-Beowulf SDF ships participate in the defense of Beowulf prior to the seccession vote. It won't matter if they're in orbit or waiting in hyper, they would present that political problem. It's probably even pushing things to maintain a picket on the terminus even though that is clearly a Manticoran possession and responsibility.

Even after Beowulf secedes from the Solarian League, having GA ships in the Beowulf system proper is going to be problematic until the SLN demonstrates a need for Beowulf to have a mutual defense alliance with someone.

Given that Beowulf is already an associate member of the alliance,I would expect that immediately after the secession vote, that it will upgrade to full member of the Alliance.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by StealthSeeker   » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:25 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
StealthSeeker wrote:But here is another idea. As it is a political problem to have any other navy's ships *SEEN* in orbit around Beowulf, how about we put 50 RMN SD(P)s in hyperspace near Beowulf.


The political problem gets immeasurably worse if any non-Beowulf SDF ships participate in the defense of Beowulf prior to the seccession vote. It won't matter if they're in orbit or waiting in hyper, they would present that political problem. It's probably even pushing things to maintain a picket on the terminus even though that is clearly a Manticoran possession and responsibility.

Even after Beowulf secedes from the Solarian League, having GA ships in the Beowulf system proper is going to be problematic until the SLN demonstrates a need for Beowulf to have a mutual defense alliance with someone.


I agree that any "visible" presence of ANY non-BSDF forces around Beowulf itself is a problem. But in the book it is discussed about how the RMN forces are potentially a "support" force for the BSDF but are ineffective as such because of their distance, it would take them to long to get there.

But I think having the "relief" force hidden in hyperspace is a workable one. The BSDF would have to engage the SLN with warnings while they are outside of the hyperlimit as Honor did to Filareta and the SLN would have to act belligerently by ignoring those warnings. Maybe even some firing missiles might have to take place. But at that point it would be reasonable for the BSDF to call for help, at which point that help would drop out of hyperspace right on the tail of the SLN fleet. This would have a strong "visual" and tactical impact on the SLN fleet.

The RMN ships would be able to use mycroft assets as well as their own missiles to squash the SLN fleet if they did not surrender.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:29 pm

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StealthSeeker wrote:But here is another idea. As it is a political problem to have any other navy's ships *SEEN* in orbit around Beowulf, how about we put 50 RMN SD(P)s in hyperspace near Beowulf.
Weird Harold wrote:
The political problem gets immeasurably worse if any non-Beowulf SDF ships participate in the defense of Beowulf prior to the seccession vote. It won't matter if they're in orbit or waiting in hyper, they would present that political problem. It's probably even pushing things to maintain a picket on the terminus even though that is clearly a Manticoran possession and responsibility.

Even after Beowulf secedes from the Solarian League, having GA ships in the Beowulf system proper is going to be problematic until the SLN demonstrates a need for Beowulf to have a mutual defense alliance with someone.
StealthSeeker wrote:
I agree that any "visible" presence of ANY non-BSDF forces around Beowulf itself is a problem. But in the book it is discussed about how the RMN forces are potentially a "support" force for the BSDF but are ineffective as such because of their distance, it would take them to long to get there.

But I think having the "relief" force hidden in hyperspace is a workable one. The BSDF would have to engage the SLN with warnings while they are outside of the hyperlimit as Honor did to Filareta and the SLN would have to act belligerently by ignoring those warnings. Maybe even some firing missiles might have to take place. But at that point it would be reasonable for the BSDF to call for help, at which point that help would drop out of hyperspace right on the tail of the SLN fleet. This would have a strong "visual" and tactical impact on the SLN fleet.

The RMN ships would be able to use mycroft assets as well as their own missiles to squash the SLN fleet if they did not surrender.

Yes, they cna hide there, and if the SL never comes calling, everything is hunky-dory. If the SLN does come calling, and the Manticoran SDs drop out of hyper behind them, the political problem then rears its ugly head - i.e. Manticore is browbeating the Beowulf people into voting for secession. Horse puckey of course, but that is the way the spin meisters in the League will spin it. The defense of Beowulf has to be done solely by Beowulf uniformed individuals.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by StealthSeeker   » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:34 pm

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Just as a tactical question....

In Manticore's defense of the Beowulf terminus, and assuming that the terminus is outside of the hyper limit, how practical would it be to keep half of the available fleet in hyperspace. This way if the terminus is attacked a ship could hyper out to the concealed fleet with scan info and have that hidden fleet jump into normal space flanking the attacking fleet. Wouldn't that make life very miserable for any attackers?
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:34 pm

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StealthSeeker wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Second there are still maximum dimensions on the pods that they can handle. Fatter missiles could just mean less per pod, but a longer missile might not be able to squeeze into the pods a given SD(P) can carry.


As I read the books my mind created the idea that missile pods were of a standardized dimension much like cargo containers on ships today. The number of missile put into a pod was determined by how many of the new sized missiles could be fit into the standard dimension pod. Thus, as missiles got larger, the number of missiles they put in the pods was reduced, as with the Mk-23 missiles.

But if changes to the SD(P) was necessary I can't see it being any more that re-spacing the rail system on the inside and maybe expanding the hatch through which the pods would enter and exit the ship. If I were designing these ships, I would create a modular railing system that could easily be changed over from one size pod to another. This way an SD(P) could take on what ever missile might currently be available if the pod sizes were indeed different.


Jonathan_S wrote:More applicably, it's possible that then much larger Havenite missiles might require pods that are physically too large for RMN ships to carry -- that might limit the ability to supplement the RMN's missile stockpile until their production plants are rebuilt. (Though their existing supply should be more than sufficient)


Even if the Havenite missiles could be put into RMN ships I wouldn't be doing that. I would be doing a redeployment of types of ships to better utilize types of resources. For instance, I would replace 2/3 of the SD's at the Beowulf terminus with Haven Ships so the In a battle Haven missiles would be use rather than RMN missiles. Haven's missiles would be given the added effectiveness of getting FTL recon updates to their targets.

The ships I pulled out of Beowulf I would be sending to critical places in Haven to augment the ships there with better recon capabilities and at least some long range missile capability if it is needed. The Haven sips would become a large part of the front line ships until RMN missiles were back into full production.
I'm sure the pods are all of a common size - I was just pointing out that some missiles are bigger than the dimentions of the standard pod.

I'm sure that to some extent you can adjust SD(P)s for different pod sizes; certainly they switched pretty seamlessly from the original pods to the flatpack designs. But again there are some limits beyond just the pod rail spacing. It's a tight squeeze to get 6 pods through the aft impeller ring to get to the armored pod hatched in the aft hammerhead. It seems to me that you could make pods that were "longer" on the rails (took up more horizontal length along the hull axis) without too much impact, but if you make them noticeably "taller" or "wider" you'd have to redo the armored pod hatches, and you risk not being able to fit 6 through the choke point of the aft impeller rooms.

SD(P)s are still way more flexible that broadside tubes -- just not infinitely flexible. You do still run into dimensional limits that are hard to work around.
Weird Harold wrote:
No. Even at 64 Lights the time lag from the terminus would be excessive. Not only that, the Mycroft installation doesn't need to be "complete" to be operational. One Keyhole II/Mycroft control platform is all that is required for an Appollo System Defense Missile storm with FTL control.
Assuming that the SLN happen to come within it's FTL control link range. (Though if you stuck it in planetary orbit they'd have to).

We know from AAC that 8 lm is beyond the range of Apollo (unless you have some kind of FTL relay). (We also know that 3 lm is within range; because that's how far back Giscard's ships were when Yanakov's ships unleashed Apollo for the first time. (So somewhere between those two values the FTL signal link can't be reliably maintained; even though the lag is still trivial. You need a repeater; which is what the additional Mycroft nodes would provide)
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by kzt   » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:44 pm

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StealthSeeker wrote:Each Navy's ships would be firing and controlling their own missiles, not extra software needed. I wouldn't think that scan/plot information would be that difficult to share either. After all the RMN has supplied scan/plot information to unarmed enemy ships to collect survivors of battles. Scan information has even been shared with *news* outlets to backup/support claims about what happened in battles. Why would it be such a monumental task for RMN ships to forward FTL scan/plot information to Haven ships and have those Haven ships utilize it?

Ok, my recon drone observes the first wave and sees defenses are working differently than expected and the tactical crew and the tactical expert systems decide the correct action should be reprograming the ECCM to Mode 45D on a Mark23, with the ECM birds going to Mode A12 for 8s second starting 13 seconds prior to entry into the CM outer zone, then going to D31 halfway through the zone, then going to A41 3 seconds prior to the start of warhead deployment. These modes each have an average of 24 different parameters including pulse repetition rates, peak frequency, sweep range, tuning of the wedge, and other changes to several other major systems.

How do you convey that to the RHN missile crew so they can modify the missile wave they have launched and is communication range for about 30 more seconds?
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by StealthSeeker   » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:10 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:
StealthSeeker wrote:
I agree that any "visible" presence of ANY non-BSDF forces around Beowulf itself is a problem. But in the book it is discussed about how the RMN forces are potentially a "support" force for the BSDF but are ineffective as such because of their distance, it would take them to long to get there.

But I think having the "relief" force hidden in hyperspace is a workable one. The BSDF would have to engage the SLN with warnings while they are outside of the hyperlimit as Honor did to Filareta and the SLN would have to act belligerently by ignoring those warnings. Maybe even some firing missiles might have to take place. But at that point it would be reasonable for the BSDF to call for help, at which point that help would drop out of hyperspace right on the tail of the SLN fleet. This would have a strong "visual" and tactical impact on the SLN fleet.

The RMN ships would be able to use mycroft assets as well as their own missiles to squash the SLN fleet if they did not surrender.


Yes, they can hide there, and if the SL never comes calling, everything is hunky-dory. If the SLN does come calling, and the Manticoran SDs drop out of hyper behind them, the political problem then rears its ugly head - i.e. Manticore is browbeating the Beowulf people into voting for secession. Horse puckey of course, but that is the way the spin meisters in the League will spin it. The defense of Beowulf has to be done solely by Beowulf uniformed individuals.


I fail to see how it would be considered that Manticore would be browbeating Beowulf if the BSDF was engaged in a battle and they requested help.

And if it could be considered a valid tactical move to keep a considerable number of the ships guarding the terminus in hyperspace, again assuming that the terminus is beyond the hyper limit, then there could be no accusation that the RMN was deployed around Beowulf itself. It was just tactically deployed around the terminus which also happened to make it available to position itself behind the invading SLN fleet from their current deployment position.

It such a deployment of ships in a defensive position is tactically valid, establishing that this was being done could influence the confidence of anyone who would attack a wormhole terminus defended by the RMN. The question of if the ships they saw were the only ships present would always be in the backs of their minds.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:28 pm

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StealthSeeker wrote:
I agree that any "visible" presence of ANY non-BSDF forces around Beowulf itself is a problem. But in the book it is discussed about how the RMN forces are potentially a "support" force for the BSDF but are ineffective as such because of their distance, it would take them to long to get there.

But I think having the "relief" force hidden in hyperspace is a workable one. The BSDF would have to engage the SLN with warnings while they are outside of the hyperlimit as Honor did to Filareta and the SLN would have to act belligerently by ignoring those warnings. Maybe even some firing missiles might have to take place. But at that point it would be reasonable for the BSDF to call for help, at which point that help would drop out of hyperspace right on the tail of the SLN fleet. This would have a strong "visual" and tactical impact on the SLN fleet.

The RMN ships would be able to use mycroft assets as well as their own missiles to squash the SLN fleet if they did not surrender.
fallsfromtrees wrote:
Yes, they can hide there, and if the SL never comes calling, everything is hunky-dory. If the SLN does come calling, and the Manticoran SDs drop out of hyper behind them, the political problem then rears its ugly head - i.e. Manticore is browbeating the Beowulf people into voting for secession. Horse puckey of course, but that is the way the spin meisters in the League will spin it. The defense of Beowulf has to be done solely by Beowulf uniformed individuals.
StealthSeeker wrote:
I fail to see how it would be considered that Manticore would be browbeating Beowulf if the BSDF was engaged in a battle and they requested help.

And if it could be considered a valid tactical move to keep a considerable number of the ships guarding the terminus in hyperspace, again assuming that the terminus is beyond the hyper limit, then there could be no accusation that the RMN was deployed around Beowulf itself. It was just tactically deployed around the terminus which also happened to make it available to position itself behind the invading SLN fleet from their current deployment position.

It such a deployment of ships in a defensive position is tactically valid, establishing that this was being done could influence the confidence of anyone who would attack a wormhole terminus defended by the RMN. The question of if the ships they saw were the only ships present would always be in the backs of their minds.

The hyper limit for Beowulf is on the order of 20 lm (It depends on Beowulf spectral class, which I don't recall off hand). The terminus is a couple of light hours away, so the terminus is well outside the hyper limit.

It doesn't matter if Beowulf calls for help - the SL will claim that the fleet was there to intimidate Beowulf into voting for secession. The fact that there is not truth to that, or that the SLN was there to in fact intimidate Beowulf into voting against secession (or to force that result) is irrelevant. This is a battle for the perceptions of a number of the members of the League - Manticore to encourage them to secede, the mandarins to keep them from doing so. Truth or reality has very little to do with this battle.
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Re: Question about Beowulf tactics
Post by StealthSeeker   » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:35 pm

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kzt wrote:
StealthSeeker wrote:Each Navy's ships would be firing and controlling their own missiles, not extra software needed. I wouldn't think that scan/plot information would be that difficult to share either. After all the RMN has supplied scan/plot information to unarmed enemy ships to collect survivors of battles. Scan information has even been shared with *news* outlets to backup/support claims about what happened in battles. Why would it be such a monumental task for RMN ships to forward FTL scan/plot information to Haven ships and have those Haven ships utilize it?

Ok, my recon drone observes the first wave and sees defenses are working differently than expected and the tactical crew and the tactical expert systems decide the correct action should be reprograming the ECCM to Mode 45D on a Mark23, with the ECM birds going to Mode A12 for 8s second starting 13 seconds prior to entry into the CM outer zone, then going to D31 halfway through the zone, then going to A41 3 seconds prior to the start of warhead deployment. These modes each have an average of 24 different parameters including pulse repetition rates, peak frequency, sweep range, tuning of the wedge, and other changes to several other major systems.

How do you convey that to the RHN missile crew so they can modify the missile wave they have launched and is communication range for about 30 more seconds?


The RMN crews would not be forwarding any such information/commands to RHN crews, I doubt that the RHN missiles have a fraction of the penetration modes that the RMN missiles do. But having access to FTL speed scans would greatly extend the window of time in which they would be able to have effective command of their missiles with what ever modes were available to them while they were attacking their assigned targets. (This is what the RMN did before the Mk-23e) The RMN ships, hopefully, wouldn't even have to engage with their missiles unless it was necessary.

Lets say that a mixed fleet of RHN and RMN ships engaged something like 100 SLN ships. The RHN would have an extreme advantage in missile range over the SLN and with the help of the FTL updated scan/plots would be able to make their attack that much more effective. No RMN missiles had to be used.

But if this combined fleet engaged a unknown threat the RMN ships could launch a long range attack to get an "reeding" on the unknown fleet's capabilities. This information could then be used by the RHN fleet ships when the unknown fleet came into range of RHN missiles. Each ship would command and fight their own missiles onto their assigned targets. Everyone would share the FTL scan/plots.
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