Honorverse ramblings and musings

the SL would never suggest such an alliance. that would require to first admit such an organisation existed. even if only to the mandarins and fleet, but they will never do that.

it is just so far beyond what they willing to contemplate that is as likely as one them willing going out of an airlock, into vacuum, without a suit.

What are we going to write about after the story ends?

Dauntless wrote:the SL would never suggest such an alliance. that would require to first admit such an organisation existed. even if only to the mandarins and fleet, but they will never do that.

it is just so far beyond what they willing to contemplate that is as likely as one them willing going out of an airlock, into vacuum, without a suit.

But could they, should they, so wise up in time and adopt the old adage "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em?"

And what would be its ramifications across the board? I'm not discounting the possibly, since RFC wrote somewhere that in the next novel he will resolve the GA's conflict with the League in a manner acceptable to his readers.

And though it'd be anticlimactic, it's the only thing I can perceive of working, to satisfy this reader.

cthia wrote:

Dauntless wrote:the SL would never suggest such an alliance. that would require to first admit such an organisation existed. even if only to the mandarins and fleet, but they will never do that.

it is just so far beyond what they willing to contemplate that is as likely as one them willing going out of an airlock, into vacuum, without a suit.

But could they, should they, so wise up in time and adopt the old adage "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em?"

And what would be its ramifications across the board? I'm not discounting the possibly, since RFC wrote somewhere that in the next novel he will resolve the GA's conflict with the League in a manner acceptable to his readers.

And though it'd be anticlimactic, it's the only thing I can perceive of working, to satisfy this reader.

Why would you be left unsatisfied with the League members giving up on the monster in disgust and re-organizing as effective, allied, smaller scale star nations?

I realize you don't think the League losing to the GA is plausible - that's been beaten to death, and at this point I'm just hoping more reading will adjust your view - but why that mess getting cleaned up and thrown out wouldn't be even attractive is mystifying.

cthia wrote:

Dauntless wrote:the SL would never suggest such an alliance. that would require to first admit such an organisation existed. even if only to the mandarins and fleet, but they will never do that.

it is just so far beyond what they willing to contemplate that is as likely as one them willing going out of an airlock, into vacuum, without a suit.

But could they, should they, so wise up in time and adopt the old adage "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em?"

And what would be its ramifications across the board? I'm not discounting the possibly, since RFC wrote somewhere that in the next novel he will resolve the GA's conflict with the League in a manner acceptable to his readers.

And though it'd be anticlimactic, it's the only thing I can perceive of working, to satisfy this reader.

JeffEngel wrote:Why would you be left unsatisfied with the League members giving up on the monster in disgust and re-organizing as effective, allied, smaller scale star nations?

I realize you don't think the League losing to the GA is plausible - that's been beaten to death, and at this point I'm just hoping more reading will adjust your view - but why that mess getting cleaned up and thrown out wouldn't be even attractive is mystifying.

Since the gavel has already come down on this sentiment, I'll really try and refrain from goading the horse. But thee tasks me. In case you were missing from that day in court, "Again, it isn't that I don't think that the League losing to the GA is plausible. I just don't think that it is plausible in the little time set up in the books."

Hold your horses Duckk, we're giving them a rest remember? LOL

I know that all of you've been essentially trying to tell me that the League has been stewing in its own mire for eons and are primed for the political kill. And I acknowledge which path the author's likely to take. That does NOT mean that I believe that just because an 800 lb. gorilla is right at the edge of a cliff, that it will be easy to input enough impetus, in so little of the GA's start time -- especially considering it's such a small source -- to push it over the precipice.


Not without a lot more Hamburger Hills at any rate.
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Dauntless wrote:the SL would never suggest such an alliance. that would require to first admit such an organisation existed. even if only to the mandarins and fleet, but they will never do that.

it is just so far beyond what they willing to contemplate that is as likely as one them willing going out of an airlock, into vacuum, without a suit.

Neither did a single one of us - with the sole exception of Honor and our own resident analyst, roseandheather - think that Haven would do so either.

And of course, the SL swallowing their pride and overcoming their inability to admit what they must is far greater than what Eloise had to finally admit to her own people and then face-to-face to Elizabeth to reach that point. Oh, it is far worse than that.

cthia wrote:
And of course, the SL swallowing their pride and overcoming their inability to admit what they must is far greater than what Eloise had to finally admit to her own people and then face-to-face to Elizabeth to reach that point. Oh, it is far worse than that.

Most of the The succseor states that are made up of formally SL systems will likely work with the GA but the SL itself before it self destructs/ breaks up, never.

Haven and the Manties had issues, but (aside from SS thugs) they never viewed each other as barely civilised barbarians who have trouble doing basic math. which Is how the vast majority of anyone with any power in the Legaue views the entire Haven sector be they mantie, erewhonise, andermani or haventite.

cthia wrote:Since the gavel has already come down on this sentiment, I'll really try and refrain from goading the horse. But thee tasks me. In case you were missing from that day in court, "Again, it isn't that I don't think that the League losing to the GA is plausible. I just don't think that it is plausible in the little time set up in the books."

Hold your horses Duckk, we're giving them a rest remember? LOL

I know that all of you've been essentially trying to tell me that the League has been stewing in its own mire for eons and are primed for the political kill. And I acknowledge which path the author's likely to take. That does NOT mean that I believe that just because an 800 lb. gorilla is right at the edge of a cliff, that it will be easy to input enough impetus, in so little of the GA's start time -- especially considering it's such a small source -- to push it over the precipice.


Not without a lot more Hamburger Hills at any rate.
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How strong are the bonds between League member systems, as League member systems? Hint: they do not get stronger just on account of their being so many of them.

That's all that needs to die. Every one of them, on its own, can opt out. Oh, the protectorates need to have OFS off their back before they can do that, but that just takes Frontier Fleet dying, quitting, or going away, and FF is thin. Core systems don't need that. They just need to see the League as a worse deal than the benefits. Right now, League membership means trivial interstellar trade instead of regulated trade, because Old Chicago's decided to attack the flag, owners, and crews of the freighters who carry their trade. It doesn't mean protection, because the SLN is regularly getting slapped by the Manticorans - and their many friends, including Beowulf. If there is any moral credit to the League, it's represented by that planet, and it's fighting for the other team.

The GA does not need to convince one world, then the next, and the next, after destroying every warships in the SLN. It needs to change the minds of the system governments, and they're all thinking at the very same time. (They may have to share a brain in the SLN or in Old Chicago and pass it around - they don't in real governments.) The minds of the people already rebelling against the OFS are made up - they just need the boot off. The people without a boot on have to change their minds, but it's not hard, and the clowns representing the League will make it all the easier.

Honor is still the People's Champion on Grayson. Yet now she has her "bionic" augmentations. It would certainly be a fatal disadvantage for anyone facing her now, being that her implants have the reaction speed and power far exceeding any normal human.

Would Honor be encouraged to disable her implants if she would be called again in the capacity of People's Champion, or would it be more like "Pity the fool?"

The League Member Systems are going to come up on some hard choices. Not the least of these is the apparent inability of the SLN to clearly engage the GA (or just Manticore because the alliance with Have is so new) and the very real demonstration that the SLN is getting destroyed in wholesale batches each time "The League" (the buracracy in the form of the Mandarins and the SLN high command) sends off a force to punish or give a "lesson" to the neo-barbs like Raging Justice.

Recall that the SLN (both BF and FF) are the primary reason that peace more or less reigns inside the League and the systems are being protected both from naked military force by their neighbors (both physically and close in time by various wormholes) and from general piracy.

If the 800 lb gorilla is no longer as seen as being an effective force preventing other than purely business and political manipulation by parties w/i the League and it's edges, the Members are going to have to take steps to insure thier own safety- Which is where the RF is supposed to creep in and grow as points of stability and defense against warlordism and adventurism in the Verge and withing the League.

The Mandarins correctly see Beowulf as the 1st shift that would become an avalanche of systems leaving the League since the system isn't going to provide the protections and order that the Member Systems etc depend on for their own safety and ability to prosper.
If Beowulf "gets away with this", things go right into the crapper for the Mandarins.

The Mandarins don't appear to be aware of Maya's pending leaving (with it's own modern fleet and allies) but once that happens, it will surly happen that they will see and fear all sorts of other OFS controlled areas jumping ship. The OFS -as corrupt as they are- are probaly the best placed to carve out their own little kingdoms as they already have control and communication within those systems and still may have the local FF willing to answer to them. FF is a real question since IF they won't stay with the currently assigned OFS governors to "protect" those areas, then the wheels fall off for OFS' cart.

Probably a major question is how the SLN is going to shake out in this. That is the people (and ships) that survive being thrown into the slaugherhouse of taking on the GA are going to have to start wondering where this is going. Of particular note is going to be how long it takes both BF and FF (and not at the same time) to realize that if they don't attack the GA, the GA isn't going to come looking from them. Well, mostly not come looking. Out in the Verge on the side in the direction of Talbot, Basilisk and the swath between Manticore and Beowulf (like Idaho etc), Manticore and the GA isn't going to take any sniffing around by SLN kindly.
Right about the time SLN is starting to get tasked to defend League Members and their allied systems from each other's agression (military etc), the SLN is going to face a question of conscience and duty it is going to have a lot of trouble with. It is going to realize that it is in the throws of an impending Civil War with way too many sides to make any kind of clean choice. Do they now overtly crush systems wanting to leave the League and do they crush League systems who are now fighting between themselves. The ability to cow said system just with reputation or showing up for a "polite visit and quiet word" is loseing effectiveness fast.