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Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:58 pm

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cthia wrote:... I haven't read but three of the peripeheral titles because of my limited time yatta yatta yatta, and because what I'd really like is time to reread the main titles -- where Honor is found! I apologize to everyone, yet again for those shortcomings. ...


Therein lies your confusion. Most of the change in perception of the Solarian League from 800 pound Gorilla to 8 ounce chinchilla takes place in the "peripheral" titles (and anthologies.)

Of course, there is also the changes in actual relative capability between the SLN and RMN to consider also. The changes aren't aren't obvious in the mainline novels because there is very little interaction with the SLN or SLN hardware in most of those books. Most of the interaction with the League and SLN is in those novels you dismiss as unimportant; until you've read them, you don't understand the true state of the League and SLN.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by George J. Smith   » Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:07 am

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Dauntless wrote:Snip Snip Snip


like what the devil did Queen (princess) Adrieene name her 'cat?


I believe it was something like Denachet (correct spelling notwithstanding) I read it somewhere but can't remember.
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T&R
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:06 am

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A bunch of people (who are being duped [and manipulated but don't really know or admit that] and are diven by their own greed a) take criminal action against other people who are actualy playing buy the laws which exist. There is a serious complication in that while there is a set of laws that should control that original bunch of people (the SL Constitution and all sorts of other things over centuries) much of that is honored primarily in the breach. It is just "business as usual and dam the actual laws to concentrate on our own agrandizement and enrichment".

So they send out people to "enforce" their laws, much in the way gangsters extend their "protection" and assistance to people who don't want it.

Finally, they run up against somebody not only willing but who now has the capasity to stand up to them and is willing to fight to protect not only themselves but other people who are being attacked or intimidated.

So the SLN gets the snot beaten out of it three times (and in the proces not only gets hundreds of thousands of it's own people killed but is still killing other people, just no longer with impunity).

The "SL"'s (actual, not the paper one) government demands that some system (Beowulf) insists that it play along with what it demands and the system insists on standing on the ACTUAL WRITTEN PAPER rules the other is ignoring. (While a defacto state of war would appear to exist--how dare Manticore or any of its represntitive officer dare to defend Manticore territory--because of SL aggression), there is NO DELARED WAR.

Nobody has announced a state of war exists until Filerta violates Manticore system limits with a couple of hundred warships with the expressed and ordered intent of attacking and beating into submission of a sovereign system--and since the "League" is often aflicted by cesspool of idiots, those orders and intentions are known to the people being attacked plus others. The commanding officer of the defending fleet- with the support and direction of the government of the home system- announces the obvious, said State of War, after they have been attacked.

Beowulf was compleatly within it's rights to stand on the Constitution.

The SL, however, has itself tied into knots because -by verture of that Constitution they are screaming that MUST be obeyed though they usualy igore it- isn't going to get a State of War authorized. Well, certainly not as long as Beowulf is a member of the SL because a vote to declare war must be unanimous and Beowulf isn't going to vote to delare war on Manticore. Really good Catch 22.

Of course, the reason that the SL (forget the Alignment involvement, that is actually incedental to the actual SL root causes and problems) is that not only has someone stood up to the bully (and soundly thrashed him several times) but they are telling everybody they stood up, and they have broadcast it to everybody with any ability to receive communications. The racket(s) find they are in truly deep shit because they can't keep this quite or "fix" it. The only solution- as preceived by them- is to crush something because othewise they are going to have to face being actualy exposed and loose thier positions/power/wealth. That they might actualy die from this now a possibility since one way for the rest of the SL to get out of the problem is to catch them, have a nice trial and execute them.

Unfortuantly the standard operating mode for humans through history, just gussied up with fancy legal dressing.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Hutch   » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:47 am

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George J. Smith wrote:
Dauntless wrote:Snip Snip Snip


like what the devil did Queen (princess) Adrieene name her 'cat?


I believe it was something like Denachet (correct spelling notwithstanding) I read it somewhere but can't remember.


It was Diancecht, after the Irish God of Healing...which given the story of how they met, is an apt name indeed...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dian_Cecht
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What? Look, somebody's got to have some damn perspective around here! Boom. Sooner or later. BOOM! -LT. Cmdr. Susan Ivanova, Babylon 5
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Dauntless   » Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:24 pm

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thanks George J. Smith and Hutch.

it has bugged me for years since I first read that story that we didn't find out what she chose for a name.

then again I suppose that is standard RFC practice as we did not learn that Climbs quickly was called Lionheart by his Two-leg until this same story
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by saber964   » Tue Dec 08, 2015 6:52 pm

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George J. Smith wrote:
Dauntless wrote:Snip Snip Snip


like what the devil did Queen (princess) Adrieene name her 'cat?


I believe it was something like Denachet (correct spelling notwithstanding) I read it somewhere but can't remember.



The name is mentioned in At all Cost, shortly after Honor's assassination attempt.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by ChronicRder   » Sat Dec 12, 2015 11:55 am

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I find it convenient how many of the lead players in the Manticore cast are known for either cavalier or hot tempered attitudes. What's even more impressive is that the RMN, despite being lead by a bunch of alleged "hot heads" like Honor and White Haven (who are both known for their apparent hereditary tempers that can rival their Empress); yet, they don't make their military in general doesn't make the mistakes or types of strategies you'd expect for that alpha-type personality. Even in the people they train/raise.

Don't get me wrong, I root for Manticore practically all the way (except maybe where Lester Tourville is concerned; then I just get the popcorn). That said, I'm surprised by this. Even Tourville is know as a "cowboy" but doesn't really do a whole lot to live up to that aside from being a cigar aficionado--good man, I love my cigars too!
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by JeffEngel   » Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:57 pm

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ChronicRder wrote:I find it convenient how many of the lead players in the Manticore cast are known for either cavalier or hot tempered attitudes. What's even more impressive is that the RMN, despite being lead by a bunch of alleged "hot heads" like Honor and White Haven (who are both known for their apparent hereditary tempers that can rival their Empress); yet, they don't make their military in general doesn't make the mistakes or types of strategies you'd expect for that alpha-type personality. Even in the people they train/raise.
They've also got a lot of professionalism. Most of the notorious hotheads also have a lot of sense to channel it, and chiefs of staff/XO's to make sure they do not go off before thinking.

Where the problems occur, it's less from excess of anger than from absence of professionalism - Elvis Santino (no moral courage, lazy), Frances Yeargin (lazy/sloppy), Pavel Young (no physical courage, among other failings less tactically critical).

kzt is certain to have things to say about Kuzak's last performance; I'm not sure if hot-headedness is relevant there though.
Don't get me wrong, I root for Manticore practically all the way (except maybe where Lester Tourville is concerned; then I just get the popcorn). That said, I'm surprised by this. Even Tourville is know as a "cowboy" but doesn't really do a whole lot to live up to that aside from being a cigar aficionado--good man, I love my cigars too!

Lester Tourville's a careful, meticulous fleet commander, who works with all the intelligence and resources he has to create thorough plans that cover all foreseeable contingencies - which he then fires off with gusto and flair. The cowboy image is maybe 20% an honest aggressiveness and 80% the theater of command.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:35 am

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JeffEngel wrote:
ChronicRder wrote:I find it convenient how many of the lead players in the Manticore cast are known for either cavalier or hot tempered attitudes. What's even more impressive is that the RMN, despite being lead by a bunch of alleged "hot heads" like Honor and White Haven (who are both known for their apparent hereditary tempers that can rival their Empress); yet, they don't make their military in general doesn't make the mistakes or types of strategies you'd expect for that alpha-type personality. Even in the people they train/raise.
They've also got a lot of professionalism. Most of the notorious hotheads also have a lot of sense to channel it, and chiefs of staff/XO's to make sure they do not go off before thinking.

Where the problems occur, it's less from excess of anger than from absence of professionalism - Elvis Santino (no moral courage, lazy), Frances Yeargin (lazy/sloppy), Pavel Young (no physical courage, among other failings less tactically critical).

kzt is certain to have things to say about Kuzak's last performance; I'm not sure if hot-headedness is relevant there though.
Don't get me wrong, I root for Manticore practically all the way (except maybe where Lester Tourville is concerned; then I just get the popcorn). That said, I'm surprised by this. Even Tourville is know as a "cowboy" but doesn't really do a whole lot to live up to that aside from being a cigar aficionado--good man, I love my cigars too!

Lester Tourville's a careful, meticulous fleet commander, who works with all the intelligence and resources he has to create thorough plans that cover all foreseeable contingencies - which he then fires off with gusto and flair. The cowboy image is maybe 20% an honest aggressiveness and 80% the theater of command.


Exactly Jeff.

Allow me room to add that they don't just have the sense and professionalism to channel it. I'd have to vote that its much more than that. They have the ability to actually harness and then channel it. Yet psychologically, it can still be "freudianized" even further. Honor, probably Hamish too and certainly Elisabeth, happens to have been blessed by fate with the perfect outlet -- their military uniform. Having the perfect outlet and proper training is instrumental and imperative to harnessing, focusing and discharging anger. My father always taught us to "Use your anger. Don't let it use you."

Wars and battles are the vector to which Honor can focus and unleash that harnessed power that always lurks just beneath the surface. In fact, I've often theorized that had she not have been fortunate enough that the right career had found her, she'd be in jail for murder. The same goes for Elisabeth. Had it not been for her outlet -- the wars and politics of government and the arseholes and wholearses thereof that demands her focus yet always feeds her anger, she'd have been shot from a lack of success in prying her hands from about someone's neck.

If Honor's path would have crossed Pavel Young's, in the same capacity that it did, in a career outside of the Navy, say Honor as a manager in some company and Young her boss, Young would have been fed to a cultivator within close of the company's first fiscal year. All in my wreck-of-an-opinion on shocks.

Probably applies to Alfred Harrington as well.

War discharges, by draining a charged battery of anger. That's why no one is ever strangled with one hand. You have to have both the positive and negative cables attached to the neck to complete the circuit.

You're probably right about kzt's likely sentiment regarding Kuzak's performance. Before her demise, he's likely to have suggested she be prescribed something like GABAPENTIN (Neurontin®).

It would have been the compensation she needed, since her ship's failed. LOL

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:30 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
cthia wrote:... I haven't read but three of the peripeheral titles because of my limited time yatta yatta yatta, and because what I'd really like is time to reread the main titles -- where Honor is found! I apologize to everyone, yet again for those shortcomings. ...


Therein lies your confusion. Most of the change in perception of the Solarian League from 800 pound Gorilla to 8 ounce chinchilla takes place in the "peripheral" titles (and anthologies.)

Of course, there is also the changes in actual relative capability between the SLN and RMN to consider also. The changes aren't aren't obvious in the mainline novels because there is very little interaction with the SLN or SLN hardware in most of those books. Most of the interaction with the League and SLN is in those novels you dismiss as unimportant; until you've read them, you don't understand the true state of the League and SLN.

Fine.

But after an adequate recess for further investigative reading, I reserve the right to be recalled to the stand. In the meantime, let the record show that I stand by my previous sentiment that Beowulf should NOT be allowed to commit treason on a technicality. :roll: :D

I'm really not trying to resurrect this cold case and beat a dead horse - even though the cart is still moving in my own head. Blame it on my new Windows tablet that my brother sent everyone as a stocking stuffer. Like it does, I suffer from remnants of leftover deleted files, still registering. Unlike my good ole LINUX!

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Is it possible that the SLN could enter into an Alliance with the GA to search for the MAlign? Could the GA politically refuse such an offer under scrutiny of the entire galaxy at large and not become the bully in the mirror?

What would such a League-GA alliance mean for them both? Politically, economically and militarily?

In the cell automata game of life, polities would either destroy or assimilate.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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