Honorverse ramblings and musings

JeffEngel wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:The League bureaucracy is a level of hamstrung "government" we've basically never seen on Earth. Kind of like if the League of Nations tried to fund a new navy but relied on member donations for income and had to buy everything cash upfront at market rates. Far different that the US Federal Government funding a new navy during the run-up to WWII.

I'm not sure about never having seen a government like that on Earth. But it's certainly not the sort of thing we've seen for several hundred years. If you took, say, European monarchies before nationalism, before the notion of absolute monarchy or the divine right of kings, before effective tax schemes or national bureaucracies - the classic feudal states - and then made sure the "king" was not even a great noble in his own right, you may have a fair image of the power of the Solarian League. A start, at any rate.

But then you'd want to make sure that there's a sense of patriotism and national unity that points, not at the League/king, but instead at the system/baron, and give that king his weak feudal grasp over many hundred barons. Admittedly, this "king" has a standing army and the "barons" tend not to, but the "barbarian hordes" have a vastly better army in quality and only somewhat smaller in quantity now.

OTOH if the majority of the League somehow pulled together and formed a real, cohesive, interstellar government, with the normal powers of such; and were given a decade or so, they likely could come roaring back and hope to take on the whole GA.
That's why the GA's strategy is to avoid things that seem likely to hammer the League into a unified economic or military force.

Right. I think cthia keeps feeling this gut-level need to assume the League either already is that real, cohesive government, or that it's one Great Man waking up away from having one. No one else is sharing that assumption.

cthia wrote:Cthia does not assume that the League is a real cohesive government, but that an entity forged in its fires, born of the crust of League politics and intimately familiar with its psephology will know what buttons to push, strings to pull, wheels to grease, palms to fill, ears to borrow and markers to call, in order to achieve some intermediate goals. A League the size that it is, does not just die overnight. And I've never agreed on the perception of how quickly the League may be able to introduce game changing technologies. If there is a Protector Benjamin within the League that can cut through the red tape, then the fat lady may have a few extra stanzas to sing. I'm just saying.

Of course no one shares his sentiments. It's cthia, the one man voice against the rage of the machine. And also, he is someone who likes to think for himself, go against the grain, fuel lively conversation and wear a very lonely hat of the devil's advocate. Also because...

The League is huge. Even I didn't realize how much so in the beginning. I have surfed the gauntlet of forum classes. The League is thousands of systems larger than the GA. Not all of them are going to want to secede. Many have been prospering from the flow of monies, reaping the benefits of the booties and have been a part of the good old boy network for centuries and have no beef with its benefactors. Even the League must have realized that it has to have a reliable circle of member states. How many of those -- within the League's thousands of worlds -- are there? And what is the size of this collective, faithful entity in comparison to Haven or even Manticore, who successfully fought each other -- or certainly, by comparison, Manticore who successfully fought the much larger Haven? Of the thousands of worlds that are still left after that, let's say 75 % want out. That leaves... what, still thousands of worlds -- thousands of times larger than what Haven, or Manticore was privileged to draw from, during their successive wars of mutual destruction?

Keep in mind that I've only had benefit of a cursory glance at Duckk's postings of RFCs infodumps.

The League isn't a monolithic entity. That's only true inasmuch as there is a lack of cohesion between the League proper, member states and a central government. But technically the League is a monolithic entity -- hence the L-E-A-G-U-E, not Leagues and I'm really not being dismissive. The League can rally the mugwumps - how numerous are they?

They've been chastising rebellious member states for centuries and would have become experts in the manipulation of the government to achieve their means. The Mandarins can use the predictive lethargy of the League government to its advantage and the fact that it is so slow at making decisions. The same as had faced the Grayson Keys when Benjamin stepped in. Likewise, the Mandarins can set a precedent -- in this time of unprecedented League danger -- to seize the reins, temporarily. In fact, it seems that it is their responsibility to do so and to fail at it would seem, in itself, treasonous. Again, somewhat reminiscent of what Protector Benjamin faced.

Who is to argue with the Navy? Why should the SLN care what its member states think of them if they use strong arm tactics? They've been doing it all along. All the SLN needs to do is to destroy the GA in one fell swoop -- killing three entities with one operation. Whether or not the League can actually accomplish such a task has no bearing on what they might think or will ultimately attempt to do. Desperation fuels adrenalin. All they need to do is to strong arm its members long enough to destroy the GA in one short victorious battle. Then back to business as usual.

The would be rebellious member states have NO guarantees that the huge League WON'T be successful against the Manticorans. Member states know how vast their League is. A major fleet battle that is lost by the League does not change the average man in the street's perception of what they think will ultimately be dispatched against the Manticorans and the RMN. Weakened and vulnerable - are a bridge apart.

Again, when Beowulf is punished by the League, other member states will know that they're still vulnerable. Why should the League not act militarily to stop rampant defection 'during the existing 'state of war?'' In fact, it appears to me that the League does have legal grounds to stand on and can indeed charge member states with the crime of treason. Member states just can't secede in the middle of a war. That is treasonous. And if one member state is dealt with severely -- as I have always envisioned was the Leagues' past MO -- may create many a lone wolf secessionist -- ostensibly cowards -- not wanting to participate in any further examples of League 'negative feedback.' Are we forgetting that these are the same people who conceived of Frontier Fleet's 'contingency plans?'

Yet, member states are seemingly supposed to just somehow, suddenly grow a pair of brass balls to defy the League just because some upstart mini-neobarb in the backwoods of nowhere fortuitously won a couple of skirmishes because the SLN wasn't yet serious about smacking them down.

The author of the Harrington plan never said or thought that a political war of attrition against the League would be easy or definitive. It won't be, at least it shouldn't be.


Late edit: Persistent visits from Gram Pol - Grammar Police.

cthia wrote:The SLN doesn't have this amount of time you say?

Then where, pray tell, will the GA acquire the equivalent amount of time it needs to defeat the SLN in this ambitious war of political attrition, by running around like a beheaded chicken visiting thousands of systems selling girl scout cookies of hope?

cthia wrote:The SLN doesn't have this amount of time you say?

Then where, pray tell, will the GA acquire the equivalent amount of time it needs to defeat the SLN in this ambitious war of political attrition, by running around like a beheaded chicken visiting thousands of systems selling girl scout cookies of hope?

JeffEngel wrote:

cthia wrote:The SLN doesn't have this amount of time you say?

Then where, pray tell, will the GA acquire the equivalent amount of time it needs to defeat the SLN in this ambitious war of political attrition, by running around like a beheaded chicken visiting thousands of systems selling girl scout cookies of hope?

I missed the part where Admiral Caparelli ordered Operation Decapitated Chicken to commence, or the Foreign Office announced a massive hope-cookie subsidy program. If you've got a link for those, I'd love to see it.

What the GA needs to do is prevent the League from being scary or useful to member states, or just scary to "protectorate" ones, while it has a military advantage. If the League's not scary or useful, people will leave it: patriotism won't enter into it, and sheer habit isn't that powerful.

To be taken seriously, it has to act militarily against the supposed aggressor, while maintaining a public image of being the injured party somehow, and it needs to have military successes that can at least seriously offset its fiascoes. The GA could stand pat and punch out SLN forces as they come so long as it can keep goading them into attacking, and defending secessionist and liberated systems and holding wormholes gives them those opportunities. The League government has no income while that goes on; people know it has no income; and it is clearly and obviously an impotent, incompetent, bungling joke while that goes on.

For kittens' sake, quit looking at NEARLY TWO THOUSAND STAR SYSTEMS as if they were the enemy. They're not. A rickety protection racket they've stumbled into feeding is the enemy. The League government has NEARLY TWO THOUSAND STAR SYSTEMS growing ready to give up supporting this farce. It cannot protect their commerce; it cannot face off against a Verge state that's just barely past being a single star system; it's got a wide variety of those Verge states, including people who've been killing each other for a couple decades, aligned against it. They're all telling each of those nearly two thousand star systems to get in the pool, the water's fine. And with them, they can get plenty interstellar trade again protected by the winning fleet, answerable to representative, responsible transparent governments with a great record for compliance with interstellar law - unlike Old Chicago's racket.

cthia wrote:You got one thing right. Caparelli didn't order Operation Decapitated Chicken. Saint Just negotiated it, then Janacek ordered it. Thus decapitating that frightened Manticoran chicken into backing off from certain victory when they were just across the street from Haven's back door! In Soul of Steel's defense -- she wasn't clucking like a chicken in tune with her frightened government worth a dam. Fat good it did her.

You're arguing semantics with me. All of the citizens and regions of Germany weren't the Ally's enemies either. But they were powerless to do anything!

And just where in GA's God-green Earth are they going to get all of the ships to protect these rebellious member states all the way in Solarian space? When they can't even protect one lone Beowulf! -- that's just down the street from it! But they can convince these, centuries frightened of the League states, that they can -- especially after the aftermath of Beowulf.

Puh-lease!

Duckk wrote:Again, read the text. There is no way this can be any more clear:

So we've got plenty of wiggle room to keep the lawyers happy for the odd decade or two if they try to push it. Which means that if we do turn them down, refuse to cooperate, we can legitimately argue we're within our rights under the Constitution.

Under Article Five of the Constitution, we can refuse to place the System-Defense Force under federal control unless the League's formally at war,

Duckk wrote:Well, I'm done. I've posted multiple instances of David's own words about how the League isn't monolithic, and how Beowulf is objectively within its rights. Clearly this is not going to sway you, and nothing will.