Question about Beowulf tactics

JeffEngel wrote:It'd also depend on the Haven to which they'd be surrendering. I think you have in mind the Legislaturalists' or CPS Haven there, in which case, agreed. But if it's a matter of surrendering to the (only-lower-case and actually "people's") Republic of Haven, well, that Republic just wanted to end the awful war and do right by its occupied systems. Even in defeat, I suspect Manticore would get a better treaty there than they would coming to the League, hat in hand, looking for last-minute salvation.

Granted, that also does depend on having a more accurate read on the new Republic as a reader than the SEM's leadership could necessarily count on. Had she survived til then, I imagine HAH would have been Haven's friend in court that way too, suggesting that the unthinkable surrender may be more livable than OFS peonage - even knowing she'd be vilified forever afterward for saying so.

Since we are talking about the situation at the beginning of the First War, there is no Republic of Haven. We already have too many unknowns to properly discuss the topic; expanding the discussion to include the Second War compounds the problem to the point where no one is talking about the same thing and confusion reigns.

StealthSeeker wrote:

Theemile wrote:Henke's older SD(p)'s can still fire the Mk 23 - they just cann't use the mk23 D/E in Apollo mode. Onl the original ~80 IAN Adler SD(p)s built interwar are limited to the Mk 41s because they canot initiate Fusion pods in the pod bay. Havenite missiles are capacitor as well and their current SD(p)s will probably have the same restriction as the original Adlers. the 40 2nd war built Adlers were modified in the yards to use Fusion pods/missiles and have KH2 for Apollo control.

Your argument has given me an insight on another way to look at SD(P)'s and what missiles they can fire. As SD(P)s are firing all of their missiles from pods the ability to launch the missiles reside in the pods that hold the missile. There fore an SD(P) can launch any missile for which it can carry the pod. Which should be just about any pod and therefore any missile.

So,... the only limitation on what missiles an SD(P) would carry is determined by it's fire control systems and how many links and what type of control links it has. (ie: keyhole or keyhole-2)

But with any ship that uses internal launchers, their physical construction limits what missiles they can launch.

SD(P)s are definitely more flexible - but there can still be a few restrictions on the missiles they carry.

First they need to be able to provide the power (or plasma) necessary to power up the missiles (or jumpstart their reactors) just before each pod is rolled. (The missiles aren't, AFAIK, left powered up while stored in the pod bay)

Second there are still maximum dimensions on the pods that they can handle. Fatter missiles could just mean less per pod, but a longer missile might not be able to squeeze into the pods a given SD(P) can carry.


We know a Cataphract is noticably longer than a normal missile - I wouldn't be surprised if a Cataphract-C was too long to be fitted into pods RMN podlayers can carry. (Not that you'd want to).

More applicably, it's possible that then much larger Havenite missiles might require pods that are physically too large for RMN ships to carry -- that might limit the ability to supplement the RMN's missile stockpile until their production plants are rebuilt. (Though their existing supply should be more than sufficient)

And finally, I wouldn't be surprised if Manticore's new 4-drive system Apollo defense missiles are too big to be carried by their SD(P)s.


But still, SD(P)s are much more flexible that legacy SDs. Retrofitting them to handle fusion pods was apparently nowhere near the effort that would have been required to upgrade an SDM equipped Gryphon-class (or even a Mk41 capacitor MDM equipped one) to handled Mk23 fusion powered MDMs. (And then switching from the 10 missile Mk23s to the 8+1 missile Apollo pods apparently didn't require any pod bay mods at all -- though extensive mods were required to install Keyhole II to take full advantage of the new missile's capabilities)

Again, harking to Kingsford's original idea of attacking Beowulf before the plebiscite, and not putting any Manti SD(P)s in system, and the fact that I posted a similar idea on another thread so I don't mind it getting shot down in both places. The one thing you don't need to do is re-discuss the political math as to whether the GA would do it [RFC's decision only], I'm thinking "tactics only".

What if the GA gives each of the 36 Beowulf SD's enough Apollo pods as limpets to and towable within the wedges, plus several ammunition ships a la Spindle, with enough Sag-Cs with enough links to control the missiles once launched. We'll also specify that all RMN ships need to be on loan and captained by Beowulfan command officers, though the tac-sections, etc. can be from Her Majestie's navy. That stops the accusation that the population of the planet is being held hostage by any Manticoran ships.

If an SLN attack doesn't come before the plebiscite, no harm, no foul, the Beowulfan officers leave the Sag-Cs, the pods are given back, etc. and they sign a mutual defense treaty with Manticore et. al. who then joins the SDF as defensive forces.

Under the alternate scenario and the SLN gets off their collective butts quick enough to make the attack... I'd think the ability to drop say 25,000 ish MDM missiles in the initial launch followed by repeated salvos from the ammo ships before the SLN could even get into Cataphract range would do a lot to even the odds. Yes/no thoughts?

SharkHunter wrote:What if the GA gives each of the 36 Beowulf SD's enough Apollo pods as limpets to and towable within the wedges, plus several ammunition ships a la Spindle, with enough Sag-Cs with enough links to control the missiles once launched.

That's much more complicated and politically risky than the actual plan of seeding the Beowulf system with Mk-25 Apollo system defense pods and "Mycroft" control platforms.

With the actual plan, you get bigger missiles, longer range, and FTL fire-control. You also only need to bring one Mycroft control platform online -- placed to cover the line of probable approach -- and any SLN attack force is toast. If necessary, the first Mycroft platform can be paired with a tug (or other ship) and towed to meet some other axis of attack.

Each additional Mycroft platform brought online either increases coverage or redundancy and darkens the SLN's toasting.

All without a single RMN uniform in site for the propagandists of the League to inflate to an entire intimidation fleet skewing the vote. If there is so much as a RMN dispatch boat in the Beowulf system the League can twist and inflate it into some form of intimidation.

As far as IF Haven takes the Manticore System, what it would get and in what condition depends on the timing.

Would Elizabeth leave sucessfully and set up a government in Exile? Well, at 1st Manticore she didn't leave. If that attack had been successful, it is unlikely that she would have been able to leave as the Haven ships isolated the planet(s) from the rest of the system and demanded surrender. Other than any official trips of state, Elizabeth was basicaly on Manticore the whole time.

At whatever point Haven might have been sucessful in takeing the system, they get what is both deployed (both on surrendered ships and military storage facilities to say nothing of manufacturing locations) and in the research labs.

Given what we have been shown of the people involved in the RMN and most of the government, it is unlikely that they would have ordered wholesale destruction of the research labs with the people aboard. It is possible that the labs themselves might be destroyed but nuking them- since they seem to be mostly on the three major stations , especialy Wyeland- means that a lot of people would be killed.

If Honor was not able to get 8th Fleet through the junction in time AND defeat the Haven forces at 1st Manticore, would she have even been alive to serve as a rally point for Manticore-in-Exile. She-IF she could get back through the Junction- might have found a support site at Matapan (but no habitable planet there) or at Hennesey but then what?

It still would have taken Haven a long time to consolidate it's gains. They first have to deal with Grayson (one of the remaining most powerfull military forces in human space), do something about the Aldermani. and sort out Talbott. Also that little matter of Silesia though perhaps could buy some time on that by "giving" the Aldermani a few more systems. I don't think Gregor would believe almost anything Haven was saying was little more than buying time till they could hit the Empire hard.

The earlier the fall of Manticore, the less developed and deployed the new tech. That is very offset by the leads that Manticore would proved against anything the SLN had and the lead would continue to grow. Haven was VERY aware tht even things early in development at Manticore were potentialy (and they certainly were) vastly great improvements on what anybody else had and should be both continued and if workable implemented into their own forces as soon as possible. I would see Haven as expecting that somebody-probably OFS- would attempt to push on into Haven's expanded territory and start trying to take pieces. Certainly that OFS would nibble around the borders and push closer knowing that OFS had the power of SLN-Battle Fleet to use for both muscle and intimidation.

The time frame (and politics) change all over the place, but essentialy you end up with both the SL and Haven getting hammered by each other and/or "minor" conflicts and the Alignment picks up the pieces.

The SL could even jump in to eliminate Haven as a threat as soon as they realize Haven took Manticore and decide that this was the best opportunity to 1) Eliminate Haven as a future problem. 2) keep the situation in the Haven Quadrant under control and 3) perhaps the highest priority- take control of the Manticore Wormhole Junction and many people in the SLN government and ministries get rich beyond their wildest dreams controling the trade through there and the possesion of the "formerly" Manticore flagged merchant fleet which would naturaly be grabbed up as part of the distribution of wealth.

--snipping--

Weird Harold wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:What if the GA gives each of the 36 Beowulf SD's enough Apollo pods as limpets to and towable within the wedges, plus several ammunition ships a la Spindle, with enough Sag-Cs with enough links to control the missiles once launched.

That's much more complicated and politically risky than the actual plan of seeding the Beowulf system with Mk-25 Apollo system defense pods and "Mycroft" control platforms.
...
All without a single RMN uniform in site for the propagandists of the League to inflate to an entire intimidation fleet skewing the vote. If there is so much as a RMN dispatch boat in the Beowulf system the League can twist and inflate it into some form of intimidation.

Great points, though I also just realized something. We've debated before whether or not there will be enough time to get Mycroft deployed in the Beowulf system. Under the theory that there's not, here's a tactical question, based on FTL com range. The SLN is assuming that it would take the SHIPS a couple of hours to get in range intervene, which is of course not true given the 64x lightspeed comm speed we've been told exists for Apollo.

It seems likely that the GA could still give the Beowulf SDF enough ghost rider drones to set up a Saltash style controlled attack from the RD globe to control the MK-25 missiles even using the Manticoran ships out around the terminus.

yes/no?

Brigade XO wrote:The SL could even jump in to eliminate Haven as a threat as soon as they realize Haven took Manticore and decide that this was the best opportunity to 1) Eliminate Haven as a future problem. 2) keep the situation in the Haven Quadrant under control and 3) perhaps the highest priority- take control of the Manticore Wormhole Junction and many people in the SLN government and ministries get rich beyond their wildest dreams controling the trade through there and the possesion of the "formerly" Manticore flagged merchant fleet which would naturaly be grabbed up as part of the distribution of wealth.

Given the centrality Manticore has for the League - with the Junction and the Manticoran-flagged and -crewed shipping - they'd even have a reasonable justification for sending in the fleet and OFS to disarm Haven, "protect" Manticore, and sort out that region.

Mind you, you'd have the Alignment perhaps getting antsy and active in that scenario, with one of the wolves actually finishing off another and the bison looking like it may come out on top and unthreatened. I wonder what they may have had in place under the Legislaturalists or the CPS to prevent a hypothetical overwhelming Havenite success, and/or in the League to prevent it from seizing Manticore or sitting on Haven then. (Penetration of the Legislaturalists and League bureaucracy we can take as granted - what to do with it in these cases, that's the question on my mind.)

SharkHunter wrote:It seems likely that the GA could still give the Beowulf SDF enough ghost rider drones to set up a Saltash style controlled attack from the RD globe to control the MK-25 missiles even using the Manticoran ships out around the terminus.

yes/no?

No. Even at 64 Lights the time lag from the terminus would be excessive. Not only that, the Mycroft installation doesn't need to be "complete" to be operational. One Keyhole II/Mycroft control platform is all that is required for an Appollo System Defense Missile storm with FTL control.

I'm sure that Beowulf can design and build the interface and power-supply to turn an existing Keyhole II into a Mycroft platform in far less than two months -- if nothing else, a Beowulf ship can beam power an fire-control info to a free-standing Keyhole II without the nesting form in its hull. It probably wouldn't be as efficient as a fully integrated KHII system, but we're talking about defending against the SLN -- the 36 BSDF SDs should actually be able to handle that without Mycroft or Apollo.

Weird Harold wrote:That's much more complicated and politically risky than the actual plan of seeding the Beowulf system with Mk-25 Apollo system defense pods and "Mycroft" control platforms.

Just a reminder that Honor's main concern about the defense of Beowulf wasn't "Can Beowulf be defended" it was "Is the BSDF sufficient visible deterrence to prevent massive loss of life (primarily SLN loss of life.)"

Honor has no doubts about Beowulf's ability to defend itself even if Mycroft is not fully installed and redundant, she's only concerned about "feeding chicks to near-sharks."

Weird Harold wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:It seems likely that the GA could still give the Beowulf SDF enough ghost rider drones to set up a Saltash style controlled attack from the RD globe to control the MK-25 missiles even using the Manticoran ships out around the terminus.

yes/no?

No. Even at 64 Lights the time lag from the terminus would be excessive. Not only that, the Mycroft installation doesn't need to be "complete" to be operational. One Keyhole II/Mycroft control platform is all that is required for an Appollo System Defense Missile storm with FTL control.

I'm sure that Beowulf can design and build the interface and power-supply to turn an existing Keyhole II into a Mycroft platform in far less than two months -- if nothing else, a Beowulf ship can beam power an fire-control info to a free-standing Keyhole II without the nesting form in its hull. It probably wouldn't be as efficient as a fully integrated KHII system, but we're talking about defending against the SLN -- the 36 BSDF SDs should actually be able to handle that without Mycroft or Apollo.

That was sort of my point/thought about even the distant control scenario. It wouldn't be enough against Haven or the Andermani, but the SLN is Little League. That said, you are definitely correct. Sans a Mycroft hull, there's nothing that says they couldn't fit a few KH-II platforms to existing SDF SD's.

<smirk> After all, Aubrey Wanderman (HoE) is currently available to reroute the missile sensors through any available data port.