Honorverse ramblings and musings

JeffEngel wrote:

Duckk wrote:Why risk poking the bear? Statistically, if Second Fleet fires, something is going to get through the near planet defenses, at which point you're going to lose much of the yards. If Tourville doesn't intend to fire to begin with, why provoke him into doing so? Third Fleet coming up behind has the strength to punch out the weakened Second Fleet by itself, so it doesn't need the system defense pods to chip in. The reward versus the risk isn't really worth it.

It does leave us with the question why system defense pods are put close enough to Sphinx so that the planet is in danger of return fire going astray. They'd got stupendous range relative to that distance, so they could have been put where they would leave Sphinx out of the affair. That does not go for the bases, stations, and fortresses stuck in actual Sphinx orbit, but they were not critically at issue.

Unless it's a matter of return fire on the system defense missile pods being directed at the bases sorta-kinda responsible for controlling those missiles, and those bases being ones stuck over Sphinx? Even then though, what forced that decision, or if it wasn't forced, what idiot made it?

It's not Kuzak's call in any of those cases though.

Thanks for your responses guys. I was stubborn on this one and kept trying to reason it out for myself, but GIGO.

I wouldn't have thought that the forts were placed so close to the planet that fallout would be a problem. Then I considered that just perhaps, this's a 'six-of-one half-dozen of the other' problem, inasmuch as if they're placed too far out from the planet an enemy force can possibly avoid them and attack from the rear forcing the forts to fire on them with the planet behind -- "miss me and hit your own planet sort of thing". But that's most likely more of the GIGO in my mind's eye.

< Shrugs off how images appear in my head.>

Though I have mixed emotions regarding the seemingly general consensus (supported in textev) that a tactician on the spot has to act as if the enemy will bombard the planet. I suppose that the defender cannot rely on the Edict to protect - but punish. Though very long ranged MDMs aren't exactly reliably accurate, I don't understand how a missile that may get through defenses would "decide" to target a planet instead of "something" in space. I thought there was discussion that stated that RFC said orphaned missiles self-destructed anyways??? And about that, I never thought that it was inconceivable for "modern" missiles to be preprogrammed to self destruct upon entering atmosphere -- surely particle shielding can detect atmosphere.

Another thing that seems a bit off is the concern or lack thereof for civilian personnel on a system defense platform. "We have these stupendously powerful platforms but we're reluctant to use them because the enemy may shoot back and kill civvies???"

Evacuate them! Heck, if it were me I'd have my own personal (runabout, scootabout, bugoutabout) -- something being about bolting and bolting fast! Don't they have a Toyota pinnace - a compact, cheap design that'll run forever but self-destruct if it hits a deer? No deer in space. lol

Michelle was placed on probation by Eloise -- as terms of her release she couldn't participate in any more offensives against the Republic. If she had been present during the epic Battle of Manticore would that have reasonably stood? That really wouldn't have been an offensive - rather a defensive. What of the oath she made to her Star Kingdom? Or would that too closely toe Michelle's line of morals, scruples, values and integrity?

At any rate, I imagine it would have been a bitch for her to mimic a young Abigail Hearns and watch the pinpricks of light from a balcony on the sidelines!

Does anyone accurately recall the details of her release from the Haven stalag?

.

Curious cat wants to know...

With all of the advanced Honorverse tech, does the cost of living hit hard in all places across the board? Nuclear power had promised cheap energy on Earth of today. Is it possible that energy is extremely cheap on Manticore or does the average monthly energy bill for a flat lie somewhere northward between 5 - 10k or more?

Great Scott! -- turn off the lights, use candles! I suppose the energy bill is lower for single officers that are never at home. But if your bills aren't setup on auto pay, you could return home owing a fortune in utility costs -- assuming your power isn't disconnected. lol

The Honorverse financial structure must see its share of elaborate 'borrow from Peter to pay Paul' ponzi schemes just to meet the energy bill. The mechanics of the financial structure would seem to play along. You can always buy yourself six months by claiming 'the check's in the mail'. Besides, it could take six months for a check to bounce.

cthia wrote:I wouldn't have thought that the forts were placed so close to the planet that fallout would be a problem. Then I considered that just perhaps, this's a 'six-of-one half-dozen of the other' problem, inasmuch as if they're placed too far out from the planet an enemy force can possibly avoid them and attack from the rear forcing the forts to fire on them with the planet behind -- "miss me and hit your own planet sort of thing". But that's most likely more of the GIGO in my mind's eye.

It's a matter of missiles picking out second-best targets nearby if they get confused by ECM or just on account of having onboard computers that seem, sometimes, to be brain-damaged idiots. And yes, the idea that they'd take a planet as a compromise target, when every missile programmer would be avoiding that like the plague does seem hard to swallow.

It's not that the planet is close enough to be concerned about nukes being dangerous to them detonating against any orbital target. Even laserheads, while they may have far longer dangerous ranges, and fire off lasers in a hedgehog blast in many directions, are unlikely to hit a planet that's "nearby" only in an astronomical sense. (Someone else could run numbers on that one; I can't, not quickly or certainly anyway.)

One way or the other, planets in Honorverse warfare ought to be safer from military accidents, what with both sides agreeing that that would be a Very Bad Thing and presumably being able to render it hugely unlikely while still going about their mutual violence.

< Shrugs off how images appear in my head.>

Though I have mixed emotions regarding the seemingly general consensus (supported in textev) that a tactician on the spot has to act as if the enemy will bombard the planet. I suppose that the defender cannot rely on the Edict to protect - but punish. Though very long ranged MDMs aren't exactly reliably accurate, I don't understand how a missile that may get through defenses would "decide" to target a planet instead of "something" in space. I thought there was discussion that stated that RFC said orphaned missiles self-destructed anyways??? And about that, I never thought that it was inconceivable for "modern" missiles to be preprogrammed to self destruct upon entering atmosphere -- surely particle shielding can detect atmosphere.

Given the speeds they move, if they detect atmosphere, it's already too late: a whole lot of energy in one form or another is going to be hitting the planet. But yeah, catching it well before that would seem obvious, easy, and intensely well motivated. Avoiding planet-smacking isn't even just to avoid the SLN coming after you; it's become an ingrained ethic in the Honorverse among everyone but Mesans and Masadans. (Yeah, Detweiler, consider your company.)

Another thing that seems a bit off is the concern or lack thereof for civilian personnel on a system defense platform. "We have these stupendously powerful platforms but we're reluctant to use them because the enemy may shoot back and kill civvies???"

Evacuate them! Heck, if it were me I'd have my own personal (runabout, scootabout, bugoutabout) -- something being about bolting and bolting fast! Don't they have a Toyota pinnace - a compact, cheap design that'll run forever but self-destruct if it hits a deer? No deer in space. lol

The big Manticoran stations grew up without a plan, for sheer massive centralized orbital work. Economy of scale trumped tactical considerations or policy ones to do with isolating civilians from military targets. When you don't too seriously consider an attack on your home system, and when you do, you figure it'll be settled by the fleets far from the planets, and when your Star Kingdom consists of two habitable planets and Gryphon, you've got to do everything with an eye toward efficient generation of funds and warships.

In retrospect, of course mixing things up on the big stations was a mistake. Of course not having better defenses of them was one too. But when decisions were made - or when natural tendencies were simply allowed to govern the day - other priorities were salient and far too relevant. Every time you make a call based on how you understand things to be and what's important, you make one that's going to bite you in a tender spot if you're wrong about how things are or what's important. Manticore is no more immune to that than Haven, the Alignment, or the League, and they've had to make more decisions under worse pressure than some of those others.

cthia wrote:I wouldn't have thought that the forts were placed so close to the planet that fallout would be a problem. Then I considered that just perhaps, this's a 'six-of-one half-dozen of the other' problem, inasmuch as if they're placed too far out from the planet an enemy force can possibly avoid them and attack from the rear forcing the forts to fire on them with the planet behind -- "miss me and hit your own planet sort of thing". But that's most likely more of the GIGO in my mind's eye.

IIRC, in A Whiff of Grapeshot, when Admiral McQueen moved to crush the Leveler Uprising in Nouveau Paris, she ordered her flagship to take an orbital position above the city that was lower than the planetary fortresses'. The ones directly above were unable to shoot down because their capital city was the backstop and at such ranges energy weapons would punch through even a SD.

Even SS ain't stupid enough to do that.

The key to completely planetary coverage is dispersion in multiple low and high orbits of different inclinations around the planet.

cthia wrote:Curious cat wants to know...

With all of the advanced Honorverse tech, does the cost of living hit hard in all places across the board? Nuclear power had promised cheap energy on Earth of today. Is it possible that energy is extremely cheap on Manticore or does the average monthly energy bill for a flat lie somewhere northward between 5 - 10k or more?

Great Scott! -- turn off the lights, use candles! I suppose the energy bill is lower for single officers that are never at home. But if your bills aren't setup on auto pay, you could return home owing a fortune in utility costs -- assuming your power isn't disconnected. lol

The Honorverse financial structure must see its share of elaborate 'borrow from Peter to pay Paul' ponzi schemes just to meet the energy bill. The mechanics of the financial structure would seem to play along. You can always buy yourself six months by claiming 'the check's in the mail'. Besides, it could take six months for a check to bounce.

It depends on your planetary and orbital infrastructure. Manticore has solar collectors and/or fusion reactors in orbit beaming power down to the surface. Thus, energy becomes very cheap on an ongoing usage basis.

It also cuts down on requirements for extensive planetary power grids, for example to service detached settlements like the Harrington homestead or between cities. And Manticore has three planets to power. Check out a power grid map of North America or Europe.

Again, the level of infrastructure they have in the HV. If virtually all major manufacturing and industrial activity has been exiled to space, planetary consumption will be reduced to residential and a relatively smaller transportion sectors, with corresponding drops in set-up and maintenance costs.

Ill-fated colonies which ended up technologically regressing would be forced to revert to a more classic 20th or 21st century power infrastructure, particularly if they lost space travel. But for Manticore, energy has always been cheap.

JeffEngel wrote:

cthia wrote:< Shrugs off how images appear in my head.>

Though I have mixed emotions regarding the seemingly general consensus (supported in textev) that a tactician on the spot has to act as if the enemy will bombard the planet. I suppose that the defender cannot rely on the Edict to protect - but punish. Though very long ranged MDMs aren't exactly reliably accurate, I don't understand how a missile that may get through defenses would "decide" to target a planet instead of "something" in space. I thought there was discussion that stated that RFC said orphaned missiles self-destructed anyways??? And about that, I never thought that it was inconceivable for "modern" missiles to be preprogrammed to self destruct upon entering atmosphere -- surely particle shielding can detect atmosphere.

Given the speeds they move, if they detect atmosphere, it's already too late: a whole lot of energy in one form or another is going to be hitting the planet. But yeah, catching it well before that would seem obvious, easy, and intensely well motivated. Avoiding planet-smacking isn't even just to avoid the SLN coming after you; it's become an ingrained ethic in the Honorverse among everyone but Mesans and Masadans. (Yeah, Detweiler, consider your company.)[quote]It's not just when they detect atmosphere that it's too late. We're talking about MDMs that have terminal burnout velocities over over 0.75c, even a DDM Mk16 can hit over 0.5c.
At that speed, if on a vector that intersects the planet, they probably need to self-destruct a couple minutes prior to impact to give the majority of the derbies time to deflect wide enough to miss the planet. Otherwise it's several tons of relativistic shotgun blast slamming into the planet -- the atmosphere is basically no shield against that kind of energy.


To give a sense of scale, 3 minutes before impact a DDM on ballistic at 0.5c would be almost 27,000,000 km from the planet. One tenth the way to Mars, or 70x the distance to the Moon.
And even then the self-destruct will throw some vaporized debris along the missiles original vector to impact the planet - which I think will still be extremely locally destructive unless something catches them on a sidewall or wedge before they hit the atmosphere.

If an incoming Honorers missile self destructs by detonating it's nuclear warhead at a distance of half the distance from the Earth to it's Moon, just how big is any debris that might hit Earth's atmosphere be? Lets say a 10 MT weapon yield in a missle that is 150 tons. Perhaps some atoms of the missle survive the intial blast and do hit the atmosphere. Sure, they might be going mighty fast but at that size the atmosphear would particle shield.
I can't see a single piece weighing 20lbs surviving the blast. Radiation from the blast could be a problem, if it penetrates the atmosphere but it won't be concentrated all in one point. Even if you are talking laser-head, just setting off the warhead -WITHOUT deploying the lazing rods- is going to make an explosion but not focus the energy on discrete points. Perhaps it is simplistic to think that if you engineer a self destruct for the weapon(and you don't want any part of the weapon to be recovered) you would just have the nuke go off without deploying the rods.

Brigade XO wrote:If an incoming Honorers missile self destructs by detonating it's nuclear warhead at a distance of half the distance from the Earth to it's Moon, just how big is any debris that might hit Earth's atmosphere be? Lets say a 10 MT weapon yield in a missle that is 150 tons. Perhaps some atoms of the missle survive the intial blast and do hit the atmosphere. Sure, they might be going mighty fast but at that size the atmosphear would particle shield.
I can't see a single piece weighing 20lbs surviving the blast. Radiation from the blast could be a problem, if it penetrates the atmosphere but it won't be concentrated all in one point. Even if you are talking laser-head, just setting off the warhead -WITHOUT deploying the lazing rods- is going to make an explosion but not focus the energy on discrete points. Perhaps it is simplistic to think that if you engineer a self destruct for the weapon(and you don't want any part of the weapon to be recovered) you would just have the nuke go off without deploying the rods.

It seems to me that since the RMN started using micro-fusion reactors on their missiles, they could trigger a very effective self-destruct by shutting down the fusion containment field. Suddenly it's a rapidly dispersing cloud of atoms.

Obviously, that shouldn't be the exclusive method of self-destruction. It's just as effective and less harmful than setting off a nuclear charge. Or, given current salvo densities, thousands of nuclear charges.

With a multidrive missile you can have a trajectory that doesn't come close to intersecting the planet until you maneuver at the start of the 3rd stage and when it does turn it can maintain a 25,000 km standoff from the planet that would be programmed as a geofence along the trajectory that the guidance system will not enter without destroying itself.

As to whether xrays would penetrate the atmosphere depends on wavelength. A nuclear weapon in space emits most of it's energy as soft xrays that get very strongly absorbed by the atmosphere (the fireball of an air burst is the xrays being absorbed by the atmosphere in a few feet of travel), the laser heads not so sure.

cthia wrote:Michelle was placed on probation by Eloise -- as terms of her release she couldn't participate in any more offensives against the Republic. If she had been present during the epic Battle of Manticore would that have reasonably stood? That really wouldn't have been an offensive - rather a defensive. What of the oath she made to her Star Kingdom? Or would that too closely toe Michelle's line of morals, scruples, values and integrity?

At any rate, I imagine it would have been a bitch for her to mimic a young Abigail Hearns and watch the pinpricks of light from a balcony on the sidelines!

Does anyone accurately recall the details of her release from the Haven stalag?

From SftS:

"There was a minority opinion," Roach told her when Cortez nodded for him to resume, "that the exact wording of your parole technically disqualifies you from active service anywhere until you've been properly exchanged, on the basis that allowing you to serve somewhere besides directly against Haven would still free up another officer for that service. That's a very strict interpretation of the Deneb Accords, however, and it's one the Star Kingdom has never formally accepted. ...

"Like any good lawyer, I went looking for the precedents most favorable to my client's case—the stronger and more specific the better—and I found what I was looking for in a decision from the old Greenbriar-Chanticleer War. In 1843, they agreed to submit a dispute over officers' paroles for Solarian League binding arbitration. The decision of the arbitrator was that any legally paroled officer could be utilized for any duty in which he or she was not personally and directly engaged against the enemy who had paroled him or her. Staff, logistic, and medical services assignments for any unit directly committed against the enemy who had paroled him or her were held to be unlawful, but service in another astrographic area, or against another opponent, was specifically held to be a lawful employment of paroled officers. In other words, Milady, as long as you aren't actively shooting at the Peeps or helping someone else do the same thing, the Admiralty can send you anywhere it wants."