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Honorverse ramblings and musings

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:56 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:Wouldn't need all that many ships actually. When you consider that it's a wormhole, and nobody knows wormholes better than Manticore. Yes the actual "lanes" are big enough that the multi megaton freighters have a very distinct entry and exit lane that allows both incoming and outgoing ships to travel without coming close enough to blow each others nodes.

But if you park what amounts to a wall of rolled superdreadnoughts, you'd only need a dozen-ish to complete a basic wall. Superdreadnought wedges how wide, in addition to being longer than the ship is (and SDs are what, damn near a klick long themselves?)

That makes the wedge something approaching 2 km long, and more than a few km wide. Parked in just far enough out that you don't need a functional hyper generator or sails, you can pretty well block off any incoming travel, without using a ridiculous amount of hulls.

Additionally, ships using wormholes don't go through with zero velocity, so things will coast (slightly). Even the exploratory destroyer for the Astro-whatever bureau it was again had some bleed, and it was creeping into the two wormholes at less than 1 gravity of acceleration, standard velocity is between 10 and 50 I think.
Actually, as munroburton said, an SD's wedge is more like 300km x 300km. It totally dwarfs the ship.

But even though it's huge it would interact fatally with the grav turbulence around the terminus. You need to switch from wedge to sails as you approach. A wedge would have to be something like 26,000 km back from the terminus to avoid being instantly destroyed by interaction with the grav eddies of the transit lane; and that grav lane within the terminus volume is something like 9,000 km across. (Ref: RFC post from 18-June-2012; in the thread "finding the torch wormhole’s destination").


So your hypothetical incoming ships have several minutes to alter their heading enough to avoid the roadblock of wedges. You'd have to totally blockade the end of that 9,000 km diameter lane to prevent their exit. That should 'only' take roughly 350 SDs. :D
(Weaker wormholes would have somewhat shorter lanes, with higher max transit speed; so this would work a little better on a little wormhole bridge than a massive junction. But not enough better to beat missile pods or mines)
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:13 am

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Some psychologically challenged madmen in our worldly society have added very good discoveries to it. Hitler's regime gave us the jet engine. Under Stalin was balanced the scales of nuclear deterrent. And what about the legacy left by Ivan the Terrible's political changes in Russia and the enormous change in the economy of Italy brought on by Mussolini?

Does the Honorverse stand to likewise benefit from the research of the MAlign? Look at what they've given us in propulsion. Are all of "Pinky's" friends in existence hell bent on taking over the universe and apt to give us an advancement in propulsion? Since they are willing to venture further down the line in the gene sequence do you suppose that they have tamed the unruly regen beast? Can they?

https://youtu.be/iJPFSNu_QNs

Oh drats, if only the Pinkys of the universe would use their Brains for good.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Duckk   » Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:31 am

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Hitler's regime gave us the jet engine.


Eh...jet engine development was fairly widespread in Europe for the first half of the twentieth century. The Germans were the first to get an operational combat plane. However, the English actually beat the Germans to the punch in patenting the jet engine, and their operational engine development basically occurred in parallel to the German efforts. They didn't use it in WWII because it was considered too unreliable for combat use. Nonetheless, the Germans shouldn't be considered the sole developer of the technology. Even if the Nazi regime never came to power, the limitations in prop driven planes were all too obvious by the 30s and 40s, so the Brits (or someone else) would have gotten there eventually.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Nov 11, 2015 8:50 am

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Duckk wrote:
Hitler's regime gave us the jet engine.


Eh...jet engine development was fairly widespread in Europe for the first half of the twentieth century. The Germans were the first to get an operational combat plane. However, the English actually beat the Germans to the punch in patenting the jet engine, and their operational engine development basically occurred in parallel to the German efforts. They didn't use it in WWII because it was considered too unreliable for combat use. Nonetheless, the Germans shouldn't be considered the sole developer of the technology. Even if the Nazi regime never came to power, the limitations in prop driven planes were all too obvious by the 30s and 40s, so the Brits (or someone else) would have gotten there eventually.

Patents don't win wars. Doesn't matter who received the patent but who rolled the first working units off the assembly line. If Germany would have deployed the fighters -- certainly if they'd used them to bomb and deliver their insurmountable advantage in bio-chem warfare, things might've been quite different.

Moreover, I was under the impression that widespread research was a result of fear and made possible only as a result of stolen German designs. Stolen by the British and their 007.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Duckk   » Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:08 am

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The Brits were the first to get a working design patented. It was the Germans, in the form of Hans von Ohain, who probably copied the design. The Germans may have been the first across the finish line, but it was built on the work of someone who already ran half the marathon. Despite that, it was still a photo finish. The Brits were right there next to the Nazis with Glouster Meteor, which was entirely home built. Saying that Germany is the one who ushered in the jet age is just as reductive as saying it was Newton who invented calculus. It was a parallel effort, which itself was based on the previous work of others.
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Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:34 am

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Duckk wrote:The Brits were the first to get a working design patented. It was the Germans, in the form of Hans von Ohain, who probably copied the design. The Germans may have been the first across the finish line, but it was built on the work of someone who already ran half the marathon. Despite that, it was still a photo finish. The Brits were right there next to the Nazis with Glouster Meteor, which was entirely home built. Saying that Germany is the one who ushered in the jet age is just as reductive as saying it was Newton who invented calculus. It was a parallel effort, which itself was based on the previous work of others.

You and I have very different sentiments on this subject. I blame my knowledge on the History Channel regarding this issue. I'll look for the episode. But it was stated that the Germans were the first. I also recall that their inspiration came from a Hungarian proposed tactic to propell their artillery -- which is even listed in your link. Also, the allied attempts at a jet powered fighter had problems. Namely, they couldn't solve the heat/component problem that the Germans solved first. Hence, the first working/reliable fighters. Allied designs were fatal -- to the pilots!

In Hungary, Albert Fonó in 1915 devised a solution for increasing the range of artillery, comprising a gun-launched projectile which was to be united with a ramjet propulsion unit. This was to make it possible to obtain a long range with low initial muzzle velocities, allowing heavy shells to be fired from relatively lightweight guns. Fonó submitted his invention to the Austro-Hungarian Army but the proposal was rejected. In 1928 he applied for a German patent on aircraft powered by supersonic ramjets, and this was awarded in 1932.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Duckk   » Wed Nov 11, 2015 10:07 am

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The Me-262 is notorious for being unreliable - their engines often had operational lives of less than 24 hours before something broke. The Meteors had relatively better service lives. The Meteors were also better armed than their German counterparts, as their guns had a higher muzzle velocity better suited for the jet's high velocity engagements.

Again, I don't dispute the Germans were first to be combat operational. But that's not the end-all, be-all of history. It completely trivializes the major work others had done in order to get there, which was my point when we started this tangent. The jet engine was an inevitability, so claiming we needed the Germans to get us there is a dubious claim.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by cthia   » Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:19 am

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cthia wrote:Some psychologically challenged madmen in our worldly society have added very good discoveries to it. Hitler's regime gave us the jet engine. Under Stalin was balanced the scales of nuclear deterrent. And what about the legacy left by Ivan the Terrible's political changes in Russia and the enormous change in the economy of Italy brought on by Mussolini?

Does the Honorverse stand to likewise benefit from the research of the MAlign? Look at what they've given us in propulsion. Are all of "Pinky's" friends in existence hell bent on taking over the universe and apt to give us an advancement in propulsion? Since they are willing to venture further down the line in the gene sequence do you suppose that they have tamed the unruly regen beast? Can they?

https://youtu.be/iJPFSNu_QNs

Oh drats, if only the Pinkys of the universe would use their Brains for good.

Before the conductor pulled the lever to switch tracks...

Do you think it's possible that the MAlign has solved the regen problem in some people?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by JeffEngel   » Wed Nov 11, 2015 12:01 pm

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cthia wrote:Do you think it's possible that the MAlign has solved the regen problem in some people?

I think they're been able to stick to genome designs that avoid the problem, and their solution is to cut short the reproductive legacy, eventually, of everyone with a regen problem. Solving it for people who already live with the problem would be an accidental spin-off, or possibly something they did as a Plan B if they found that some lines they really, really want just won't regen no matter how hard they fiddle (consistent with preserving what they really, really want) and they discovered a regen-aversion treatment for them.

Otherwise - sure, I wouldn't be surprised if some other important and useful discoveries have been or will be made by the Alignment's scientists. They're clever, well-supported people. Unless clever, well-supported people are pointed narrowly at impossible things or hopelessly bad things, they will chug out beautiful and/or useful things. Dictators, evil sorts, and disturbed sorts will often enough point brilliant researchers right at the Stupid Wall and demand specific results, but the rest of the time, even they aren't providing instructions and oversight guaranteed to make a mess of things.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings
Post by Theemile   » Wed Nov 11, 2015 1:51 pm

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Duckk wrote:The Me-262 is notorious for being unreliable - their engines often had operational lives of less than 24 hours before something broke. The Meteors had relatively better service lives. The Meteors were also better armed than their German counterparts, as their guns had a higher muzzle velocity better suited for the jet's high velocity engagements.

Again, I don't dispute the Germans were first to be combat operational. But that's not the end-all, be-all of history. It completely trivializes the major work others had done in order to get there, which was my point when we started this tangent. The jet engine was an inevitability, so claiming we needed the Germans to get us there is a dubious claim.


The Meteor was operational in July 1944, So it did contribute to the war, but it's short legs and short lived engine limited it's operational radius (while a better engine than the German's, all early jets were lucky to see much more than 100 hours of use between total rebuilds.)

The British also slipped the Wittle design to the US in '43, where GE spent most of the war trying to figure out how to get both power and longevity out of the engine.

I've seen pictures of an Italian attempt at a jet engine in the late 1920s, early 30s which obviously didn't go anywhere.
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