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Jonathan_S wrote:The Mk31 was already a brand new breakthrough in CM performance, the highest acceleration of any missile the RMN has and the first extended drive CM. And then they stuck a single-rod laser-head onto its nose, which has to be at least a 15% increase in length, and it didn't lose even a single g of acceleration.

Wait, a CM with laser? Where was this?

I'm not doubting, I just don't remember it. CMs don't shoot, they ram.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:The Mk31 was already a brand new breakthrough in CM performance, the highest acceleration of any missile the RMN has and the first extended drive CM. And then they stuck a single-rod laser-head onto its nose, which has to be at least a 15% increase in length, and it didn't lose even a single g of acceleration.

Wait, a CM with laser? Where was this?

I'm not doubting, I just don't remember it. CMs don't shoot, they ram.

It's (technically) not a CM with a laser. The Viper is the Katanna's anti-LAC missile. (Though it can be used in a CM role; where, yes, it does ram. The laserhead is just for engaging enemy LACs)

Here's the relevant text

At All Costs wrote:Grayson-designed Viper anti-LAC missile.
The Viper was about two-thirds the size of a standard LAC missile, but it was quite different. It carried a much smaller warhead, without the multiple lasing rods of a conventional warhead, in order to incorporate significantly better seekers and an enhanced AI. And it also was designed for engagements at much shorter ranges. Engagements in which massive acceleration, agility, and the ability to reach targets quickly were vastly more important than endurance. Which was why the Viper used the same drive systems as the Mark 31 counter-missile.

Storm From The Shadows wrote:That was also the reason it had been such a challenge to squeeze a laser head capable of dealing even with LACs into the new Viper anti-LAC missile. The bay for the single lasing rod was almost two thirds the length of the entire missile body, and finding a place where it could be crammed in had presented all sorts of problems.

At All Costs wrote:Dillinger didn't really like to think about just how expensive each of his LACs' "counter-missiles" actually was. The systems built into the Viper for its anti-LAC role meant it cost twice as much as the standard extended-range Mark 31 CM on which it was based. But the Viper retained the Mark 31's basic drive system, and a counter-missile's impeller wedge was what it used to "sweep up" attack missiles. Which meant the Viper was still perfectly capable of being used defensively, and earmarking a percentage of them for missile defense, rather than using magazine space on dedicated Mark 31s which couldn't be used in the anti-shipping role, simplified their ammunition requirements and gave them a potentially useful cushion both offensively and defensively.

House of Steel wrote: Their multipurpose launchers fire the Viper missile, which can be used in either counter-LAC or counter-missile mode. Used in the second mode, the Viper remains an extremely capable counter-missile, matching the antimissile performance of the cheaper dedicated Mark 31 counter-missile from which it was derived.

penny wrote:
(SNIP by RAW of most of the original)

Which is why I suggested that separating a spent stage could be reserved until this moment. If the missile's acceleration suddenly changes due to dropping a spent stage, then the extra boost of acceleration might be enough to throw the PDLC computer off for a split second. A split second delay might as well be an hour delay in this threat environment.

The Cataphracts are probably staged; but the full up MDM used by RMN (and probably RHN) aren't designed to be staged (and why should they be?). The only surplus items at the end of the run are burnt out impeller nodes.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:

penny wrote:
(SNIP by RAW of most of the original)

Which is why I suggested that separating a spent stage could be reserved until this moment. If the missile's acceleration suddenly changes due to dropping a spent stage, then the extra boost of acceleration might be enough to throw the PDLC computer off for a split second. A split second delay might as well be an hour delay in this threat environment.

The Cataphracts are probably staged; but the full up MDM used by RMN (and probably RHN) aren't designed to be staged (and why should they be?). The only surplus items at the end of the run are burnt out impeller nodes.

But as I said before, when SDMs grew up to become MDMs their size increased by more than just the size of the impeller node or drive rings.

Can we really call a jerry-rigged missile that happens to separate a true multistage missile? One stage (is it one stage?) might happen to separate, but I think the MA can do better. Much better.

Jonathan_S wrote:The Mk31 was already a brand new breakthrough in CM performance, the highest acceleration of any missile the RMN has and the first extended drive CM. And then they stuck a single-rod laser-head onto its nose, which has to be at least a 15% increase in length, and it didn't lose even a single g of acceleration.

Again, we do not know what the equation with compensation and volume look like. At the risk of sounding like I am pulling at straws, the equation might not be so neat and tidy. There might be varying ranges of compensation per volume (thresholds) for a given increase or decrease in performance. And it just might have happened to be that the size of that particular compensator could cover 15% more volume without any degradation in performance.

Like I said, the equation might not be so neat and pretty. But I do not think that we can argue with the notion that the equation is consistent with the promise that smaller objects will generally be faster than larger objects. As an example, 4th grade school kids might have the same speed as 5th grade school kids because their sizes are relatively close. But as the size differential gets much greater the acceleration drops off faster and vice versa. And the greatest windfall just might occur on the smaller end of the volume scale at a certain magical threshold.

Plus, without the complete technical specs in hand, we do not know if a 15% increase in the volume of the missile didn't pay dividends of a bigger compensator. Albeit, reading the text stating that they had problems finding places to stuff the single lasing rod, having a bigger compensator available might be questionable. But as you said, we do not know the magic of the missile's built-in compensator. But regardless of whatever voodoo the equation uses, it seems to be undeniably biased towards smaller objects.

penny wrote:Again. The equation with compensation is concerned about volume, not weight. And again, I was talking about missiles being redesigned for this purpose.

-snip-

Plus, we do not know if the Cataphracts are anything like the actual missiles that will be deployed by the MAN.

Thinksmarkedly wrote: The Ninurta is very likely to be very similar to the Mk23, simply because the MAN is likely to have copied the design as much as it could. I'll grant you there's a possibility it's something completely different, but I am talking about likelihood here.

Likelihood? Pardon my manners, but likelihood does not seem to apply to the MAN anywhere in my dictionary or their MO for that matter. And certainly no psychologist can use likelihood as a mechanism to develop a psychological profile as a prelude to what's coming.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:tlb’s point is that for Mk23, the volume lost due to dropping one or two rings is minimal, at most 15% of the missile. And therefore, the likelihood is that the same would apply to the Ninurta.

Careful. You're out on a limb.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:snip-

Maybe, maybe, if you start with a much smaller compensated volume, basically skin-tight to the missile, you could get what you're saying. If that were the case, then I expect that their Ninurta have far higher acceleration than then 46000 gravities to start with. But that would mean an MAN 2-stage missile launched from escort ships couldn't be used in the same salvo as a 3-stage missile launched from the capital ships it is protecting, because they won't fly at the same acceleration. Maybe it doesn't matter, but I expect it does because that removes flexibility and thickening of a salvo.

It isn't like the RMN has held back from showcasing the maximum capabilities of its missiles.

Jonathan_S wrote:As far as we know the Cataphracts seen to be true multi-stage missiles, based on being described as "effectively no more than a standard missile with a laserhead-armed “counter-missile” glued to its nose" [UH]. And they're pretty consistently described as having stages or being a two stage missile. So my assumption, from that, is that the standard missile body first stage is physically dropped before the second/final CM stage activates -- but I can't recall stage separation being explicitly described in the text. (Still it seems odd to call them stages if they don't stage)

The MAN versions of the Ninurta could be more than a two stage missile. It could incorporate as many more stages of CMs as needed into one missile.

Talk about my long ago detested notion of a missile that shoots its wad quickly.

penny wrote:The MAN versions of the Ninurta could be more than a two stage missile. It could incorporate as many more stages of CMs as needed into one missile.

Talk about my long ago detested notion of a missile that shoots its wad quickly.

It's not likely. Adding more CM stages to the missile would mean it's un-launchable from any tube. Even an LD might be hard-pressed to have tubes for it.

Like I said, the most likely scenario is that the Ninurta is a true MDM, with proper drive rings. Whether the MAN has reserved some extra surprise, we don't know.

Even if the Ninurta isn't that, I fully expect the MAN to have such a true MDM because they knew how inferior the Cataphracts were to the 3-stage MDM, let alone a 4-stage system defence missile, and how inflexible they were compared to the Mk16 DDM. Therefore, it doesn't matter whether it is called the Ninurta or something different.

penny wrote:The MAN versions of the Ninurta could be more than a two stage missile. It could incorporate as many more stages of CMs as needed into one missile.

Talk about my long ago detested notion of a missile that shoots its wad quickly.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:It's not likely. Adding more CM stages to the missile would mean it's un-launchable from any tube. Even an LD might be hard-pressed to have tubes for it.

Like I said, the most likely scenario is that the Ninurta is a true MDM, with proper drive rings. Whether the MAN has reserved some extra surprise, we don't know.

Even if the Ninurta isn't that, I fully expect the MAN to have such a true MDM because they knew how inferior the Cataphracts were to the 3-stage MDM, let alone a 4-stage system defence missile, and how inflexible they were compared to the Mk16 DDM. Therefore, it doesn't matter whether it is called the Ninurta or something different.

You are such a pessimistic fellow. The kind I imagine found in the SLN. From your profile, you must be a spy.

Likely? There's that chalkboard screech again. You're gonna' have to explain that to me one day. You can figure out what's likely for the MAN? Do tell. You should go see the dynamic duo.

But what's this about a true MDM? How about a true multi-stage missile or better yet, a multi-stage MDM instead. IOW, how many stages does it take to make an MDM?

Thinksmarkedly wrote:It's not likely. Adding more CM stages to the missile would mean it's un-launchable from any tube. Even an LD might be hard-pressed to have tubes for it.

"See me in my office. STAT!" — SF

You're getting in your own way again. Somewhere upstream, we surmised the possibility of a CM control-missile. CCM; a CCM would lead to a smaller CM since they are so accurate.

penny wrote:But what's this about a true MDM? How about a true multi-stage missile or better yet, a multi-stage MDM instead. IOW, how many stages does it take to make an MDM?

A Multi-Drive Missile has just one stage with multiple drive rings, as opposed to the Cataphract which has two stages (each containing a single drive). So the Cataphract is a true multi-stage missile. I question whether you gain anything by creating a multi-stage MDM.

Personally I wonder about a CM pod with a wedge drive (so multi-stage), to get the CM ignitions much further from the target; allowing more launches at the incoming missile stream.

penny wrote:You are such a pessimistic fellow. The kind I imagine found in the SLN. From your profile, you must be a spy.

Likely? There's that chalkboard screech again. You're gonna' have to explain that to me one day. You can figure out what's likely for the MAN? Do tell. You should go see the dynamic duo.

If you want to say the MAN has come up with surprises, say they have more than one missile solution in the works. One will be the true MDM like what Haven and Manticore had been throwing at each other, because there's no reason for the MAN not to copy and a lot of reasons to copy. The only reason for them not to have such a missile is that they couldn't duplicate it and even I would say it's selling the Alignment short.

Then give your idea of how additional missile types could be useful. There's value in commonality, so if you think this other solution of theirs is sufficiently good that their logistics would be better without the true MDM, so be it.

But don't say it's a multi-stage Cataphract. Those have shown the limitations: they didn't have the range of a DDM, let alone that of a true MDM. They were big and clumsy, to the point that SDs were firing BC-grade warheads just to have some range. If you want to insist on multiple stages, you have to give a reason for why it would be beneficial to have multiple stages instead of multiple drive rings on the single stage.

But what's this about a true MDM? How about a true multi-stage missile or better yet, a multi-stage MDM instead. IOW, how many stages does it take to make an MDM?

One stage with three rings gives you practically terminal velocity. Four rings gives you any range at terminal velocity and powered attack.

One reason to add more rings is to run them in "sprint" mode. To do what 3 rings can do in 9 minutes, you'd need 5 rings for 4.5 minutes. This means you can reach the terminal ~0.8-0.9c in less than 5 minutes and 41 million km. There's a tactical value in this because the missiles would be harder to track and kill. But since they would be bigger than a 3-ring missile, it stands to reason you'd be firing fewer of them, and we know that quantity is a quality of its own. So trade-offs.

I don't see any reason to add more stages.

You're getting in your own way again. Somewhere upstream, we surmised the possibility of a CM control-missile. CCM; a CCM would lead to a smaller CM since they are so accurate.

What does that have to do with making shipkiller missiles bigger by bolting more CM stages to it?

Yes, I fully expect that the revised versions of the Cataphract already used something smaller than the regular CM because it didn't need to be as intelligent. So it's already been reduced once and I do expect TIY and the Alignment will have worked on reducing it further. However, I still think the multi-stage shipkiller+CM design of the Cataphract is a dead-end technology.