What's the chance of a Streek Drive Super Dreadnought?

Vince wrote:What it sounds like you would do is leave the RMN/GA SDPs at the terminus and send in a force of Nike BCLs and Saganami-Cs CAs, equipped just with the Mark-16G DDM and whatever tractored pods equipped with Mark-23 missiles the Nikes can cary, through N-space. You wouldn't micro-jump because the hyper drive provides a strategic advantage, not a tactical advantage.

I do think that's a misrepresentation of Harold's arguments. A streak drive isn't tactically useful in combat, because most combat takes place inside a hyper limit, and no matter how good your hyperdrives are, you just can't use them there.
In the case of a terminus defense fleet moving to support a planet, the capabilities of the streak drive are immaterial as well; plotting a jump from the terminus to the edge of the hyper limit is hard enough without throwing in upwards and downwards translations into and out of the bands the streak drive can reach into the mix (Not to mention that every upwards translation incurs a cycle time penalty).

Your main point, that the RMN will have a greater need for strategic mobility now that it has to protect the entire Empire, is spot on though.

Vince wrote:Also you are missing a very important point. Manticore is no longer a single system polity, but is now a far-flung, multi-system polity, with all the responsibilities associated with such. The need for strategic mobility increases dramatically when you move from a navy responsible for only a single system to one that is responsible for multiple star systems across vast distances.

No, I'm not missing the span of the SEM or the Span of the Manticore Alliance or even the span of the anticipated web of bilateral mutual defense treaties. I just don't believe that SDs with Streak Drives will meet those needs any better than SDs with milspec hyper-drives. At least not enough better to warrant the expense of retrofitting existing SDs.

The SEM has opted for indigenous LAC squadrons and system defense Apollos with distributed FTL Mycroft control systems. SDs aren't as necessary for defensive deployments or fast response nodal deployments as they used to be.

Vince wrote:One thing that I don't understand is why wouldn't you mount streak drives on your SDs or SDPs with the advantage for strategic mobility, especially with now that the Star Kingdom is now the Star Empire? Or are you advocating the use of merchant grade hyper generators for use in SDs & SDPs?

It isn't that I wouldn't fit Streak Drives into SDs, it is that I would fit Streak Drives into SDs as a priority.

First, SDs don't need Streak Drives as urgently as couriers, scouts, and commerce defenders/raiders.

Second, SDs can wait for Second generation or third generation Streak Drives because the existing SDs are more than adequate for the missions that require SDs.

Vince wrote:As has been said in real life, "prediction is very difficult, especially about the future". If you guess wrong in a time of war in giving up an advantage or accepting a disadvantage, you lose lives, money, and time. Lose often enough, and you cease to exist as a nation.

Manticore does not have the resources they had during the wars with Haven. They lost most of their manufacturing capability and huge chunks of Junction fees to the Yawata Strike and Case Lacoon. They need to predict accurately what ship types they'll need and where. In the forseeable future, they need to deal with the SLN and they need to deal with the members of the SL.

They have sufficient SD(P)s to deal with Battle Fleet and have conclusively demonstrated that their lighter MK16G capable ships can deal with frontier Fleet.

What they need in the Foreseeable future is more Rolands (or whatever the follow-on DD(L) is) and more Saganami-C and Nike class Cruisers. What they need is more CLACs to accompany and screen Cruiser Squadrons and Task Forces.

They do also need to plan long-range and predict the kinds of battles they'll face when confronting the MAlign or other threats. (Including the eventual dissolution of the GA)

Vince wrote:At the end of A Rising Thunder, the two Captains (these are the ones with functioning brains) in the SLN Office of Operational Analysis are discussing the task to provide intelligence on Beowulf they expect to be getting later that afternoon. It is strongly implied that the SLN may actually attack Beowulf before the plebiscite. In other words, the trade war (commerce raiding) is not the only option the SLN sees as acceptable.

System Defense Pods, Mycroft, and the BSDF. Manticore and the GA will NOT interfere in Beowulf's defense or the Plebiscite on Secession. That is also explicitly stated in textev. Manticore will defend the Junction Terminus and avoid any hint of coercion until Beowulf Secedes and joins the GA formally.

Vince wrote:What happens if the SLN comes over the hyper limit in a crash translation, and goes for the planet at maximum acceleration in order to compel the planet's surrender before you can intervene? Assume that you have FTL communications relays between the planet and the Beowulf terminus so that you have a chance of responding in time to stop the SLN.

System Defense Pods, Mycroft, and the BSDF.

Vince wrote:You wouldn't micro-jump because the hyper drive provides a strategic advantage, not a tactical advantage.

A Streak Drive wouldn't help make a micro-jump to assist Beowulf since a micro-jump wouldn't go past the Alpha Band. Going higher would incur too much velocity loss and drop you into a battle at a dead stop.

What I've said is that a Streak Drive would provide very little, if any, tactical advantage. Most space combat takes place in or near the hyper-limit of a star where a hyper-generator is just ballast and/or an energy hog as it slowly charges to help you escape when/if you reach the hyper-limit.

Eventually, there will be Streak Drive SDs, I just don't believe that they are, nor should they be, a priority for getting Streak Drives -- especially first generation streak drives.

The E wrote:Your [Vince's] main point, that the RMN will have a greater need for strategic mobility now that it has to protect the entire Empire, is spot on though.

The SEM has opted for indigenous LAC squadrons and System Defense Apollo pods and have supplied Beowulf with System Defense pods and Mycroft FTL fire control. That eliminates most of the need for strategic mobility for defense purposes.

Better Strategic Mobility for offensive purposes isn't that critical in most cases -- the first a target knows it is a target is when the attackers drop OUT of hyper. At that point it doesn't matter how long they were in Hyper, it just matters that they're attacking.

Better Strategic Mobility is nice-to-have, but it isn't a game-changer the way better compensators affected tactical considerations.

Weird Harold wrote:

Vince wrote:In real life, David has told us here (wearing his naval historian hat) how the United States Navy stuck with an older, less tactically capable propulsion technology (reciprocating steam engines with forced lubrication, IIRC) for another generation of warships while every other navy was moving to the newer more tactically capable steam turbine because the need for strategic range outweighed tactical mobility considerations.

I think politics, budget, and isolationism had as much to do with those kinds of choices than strategic range considerations. Once the US went to war in the Pacific, they launched some of the fastest (super dreadnaught) Battleships ever built -- with all the technological bells and whistles they could be fitted with.

True, but that was after they'd already gone to steam turbines on their battleships.

What they initially skipped was the first generation 1906-era HMS Dreadnaught direct drive turbine technology. The USN stuck with vertical triple-expansion (VTE) reciprocating steam engines in their first "Dreadnaught"-era Battleship class, the South Carolina-class, then experiments with direct drive turbines beginning in the Delaware-class. This began a bit of a period of back and forth and experimentation.

1910: South Carolina-class; VTE
1910: Delaware-class; 1 ship VTE, 1 ship direct drive turbines
1911: Florida-class; direct drive turbines
1912: Wyoming-class; direct drive turbines
1914: New York-class; VTE.

The next class, the Nevada-class marked the beginning of the 6 class "Standard" US battleship, and was the first class to have geared steam turbines which eliminated much of the efficiency advantages of VTEs, and yet the experimentation wasn't done.

1916: Nevada-class; geared turbines
1916: Pennsylvania-class; geared turbines
1917: New Mexico-class; 1 ship turbo-electric, 2 ships geared turbines
1920: Tennessee-class; turbo-electric
1921: Colorado-class; turbo-electric

Then the Naval Treaty era forced the USN to abandon turbo-electric because it was significantly heavier than geared turbines and they didn't want to "waste" their treaty limited displacement on heavier propulsion.

But by the time the Iowa-class came along the USN had been standardized on geared turbines for years. So it wasn't the war in the Pacific that caused them to switch away from reciprocating steam engines, it was the march of technology that made their competitors more attractive.

Jonathan_S wrote:I can see the logic that says the GA has enough SDs. However we've already seen "on screen" plans to build new Apollo capable SD(P)s combining input from Bolthole, Beowulf, and Manticore.

And politically "freezing" SD construction now seem unpalatable to the other members of the Grand Alliance. It leaves Haven very much a 3rd tier military behind Manticore, Grayson, and even the Andies (who aren't even in the GA) -- because all of them have at least some Keyhole II carrying SD(P)s.
And when Beowulf joins they'll be 4th tier as they've no pod layers at all.

So I assume that even if the new SD(P)s aren't likely to be needed soon againt the SLN or the MAlign, that politics would dictate a non-trival build level to allow all members to phase out their older wallers for ones capable of FTL fire control.

There´s also the trend towards increasing the upper size limit for SDs, my feeling is we´re going to see a jump in tonnage with the first GA SD, regardless if it has streak drive or not, which is one more reason i expect there will be plenty enough new build SDs.





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Weird Harold wrote:The improved compensator provides a tactical advantage -- higher acceleration in N-Space during combat. The Streak Drive doesn't provide an appreciable tactical advantage, so it isn't quite comparable.

As already stated several times, having higher strategic mobility is the same as having MORE ships in total, because they can be where they are needed faster.
Yes it is very comparable.
It just isn´t 1:1 comparable.

Manticore's historical preference has been for Battle Cruisers as its most numerous capital ships.

BCs capital ships?

IMHO, you're not giving up a great deal by not getting to a major battle slower than your opponent -- especially when that opponent can't stand against you in N-Space.

I´m afraid you are extremely wrong. Give me a 15% strategic mobility advantage, and i can literally destroy you. Give the same advantage to my friend and he can destroy me AND you both at the same time without breaking a sweat.

Being able to outpace an opponent is a BIG advantage.

Tenshinai wrote:As already stated several times, having higher strategic mobility is the same as having MORE ships in total, because they can be where they are needed faster.
Yes it is very comparable.
It just isn´t 1:1 comparable.

Which is why couriers, scouts, and commerce raiders need Streak Drives. SDs sitting parked in defensive deployments don't need Streak Drives, it's just nice-to-have.

Tenshinai wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Manticore's historical preference has been for Battle Cruisers as its most numerous capital ships.

BCs capital ships?

MWW has stated several times that BCs are considered Capitol units - especially for 3rd teir navies. How the RMN categorizes them seems to have ebbed and flowed over the books, but in WoH, Honor mentally gives a breakdown of the forces at Sidemore and includes BCs as capitol ships - followed by an "even though x are only BCs". Of course some of those BCs WERE BC(p)s.....

Weird Harold wrote:Which is why couriers, scouts, and commerce raiders need Streak Drives. SDs sitting parked in defensive deployments don't need Streak Drives, it's just nice-to-have.

But the only reason to even have SDs sitting parked defensive deployments is that you might need them somewhere else. Otherwise you'd get more firepower for way less money in forts and system defense pod networks.

drothgery wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Which is why couriers, scouts, and commerce raiders need Streak Drives. SDs sitting parked in defensive deployments don't need Streak Drives, it's just nice-to-have.

But the only reason to even have SDs sitting parked defensive deployments is that you might need them somewhere else. Otherwise you'd get more firepower for way less money in forts and system defense pod networks.

I'm with Harold here...

Yes, in a world without resource limits and upgrade priorities, sure, having a strategic force which can move around the chess board faster and raid or reinforce a system before the opponent even knows it moved is a great ability to have.

However, SDs rarely move "balls to the wall" through Hyper now. Look at 2nd Yeltsin for example - White Haven refused to risk SDs at a maximum rate voyage to Grayson to reinforce Honor - he peeled off his BCs and raced ahead with them in the hopes they could return in time - but the SDs followed along at a safer rate.

No where has it been mentioned that the new speed the streak drive has conferred is "safe." While all military ships with conventional hyperdrives have the same theoritical speed limit in hyper - only the small ships are risked in the upper bands. Does it make sense to waste time and money when they are in critical need to do upgrades on ships which probably will never use a technology, or is it wiser to focus first on those which probably will?

Theemile wrote:
MWW has stated several times that BCs are considered Capitol units - especially for 3rd teir navies. How the RMN categorizes them seems to have ebbed and flowed over the books, but in WoH, Honor mentally gives a breakdown of the forces at Sidemore and includes BCs as capitol ships - followed by an "even though x are only BCs". Of course some of those BCs WERE BC(p)s.....

Ok. Just one thing, capital, not capitol.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/capitol

noun
1.
the building in Washington, D.C., used by the Congress of the U.S. for its sessions.
2.
(often lowercase) a building occupied by a state legislature.
3.
the ancient temple of Jupiter at Rome, on the Capitoline.
4.
the Capitoline.


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/capital
11.
principal; highly important:
13.
excellent or first-rate: