Do we actually need SD(P)s?

Theemile wrote:All the text say they shot themselves "Almost dry" - what would you hold back for contingencies? - we can assume it is at least 6 pods, but I'm thinking 2-3 pod rolls.

Probably something like that, although you have to wonder what sort of contingency such a pitiful number of pods could be expected to handle. They'd already conclusively proven that they couldn't hurt podnaughts with them. All visible threats were running away and nearly out of range.

I guess the carriers could have reappeared and used the LAC wing they held in reserve to try to punch out the SDs while they were reduced to energy weapons only, but so few pods wouldn't fare well against a hundred LACs or even the carriers themselves even with no LACs covering them. That couldn't be a high enough threat potential to be worth holding back a reserve for. Most likely their second big launch was exactly the same size as the first and any remaining pods were simply the few that they didn't have the fire control to use for those two launches.

As a side note, Giscard's ships kept building up that second launch while under active fire and yet "use them or lose them" seems to have not occurred. Authorial oversight, maybe?

Galactic Sapper wrote: Most likely their second big launch was exactly the same size as the first and any remaining pods were simply the few that they didn't have the fire control to use for those two launches.

As a side note, Giscard's ships kept building up that second launch while under active fire and yet "use them or lose them" seems to have not occurred. Authorial oversight, maybe?

The uncontrollable remains is most likely - it's not like Giscard had planned the 12th and 13th salvo, it had to be set up on the fly.

As for the buildup under fire, I noticed that also - I'd say oversight is most likely.

cthia wrote:Hey, that's right munroburton. Then what made it possible? I'm not doubting you tech heads, you guys are amazing. I'm just wondering what made it possible to eliminate lots of used space to hollow out an SD to make an SD(P).

Lots of things, most notably ...

- Havenite SD(P)s don't have late-RMN/GSN hyper-automation, but they're nowhere near as manpower-intensive as SLN SDs
- All Havenite SD(P)s we've seen have completely eliminated broadside missile launchers
- Improved compensators mean you can build bigger SDs (Haven doesn't have Grayson-style compensators, but they still made some improvements)

So, if I'm correctly digesting the amazing statistics laid down, it seems quite possible automation could have accounted for a 10-20% difference in total pod loadout. Even if a lack thereof didn't inhibit the design.

cthia wrote:So, if I'm correctly digesting the amazing statistics laid down, it seems quite possible automation could have accounted for a 10-20% difference in total pod loadout. Even if a lack thereof didn't inhibit the design.

Huh? Have you ever seen a Navy berthing space? The crew doesn't get a private suite.

cthia wrote:Wouldn't a "screen" of BC(P)s have been more than a nuisance even to SDs? Spitting out that many missiles could have bought you a golden BB. It wouldn't have mattered if the SDs point defense would have increased in response, as far as making them the superior ship against BCs. SDs are superior to BCs anyway. BC(P)s would have made a helluva screen back then. No?

You might get a golden BB, but for an equivalent tonnage I would expect the SD to prevail most of the time.

Let's say SD(P)s are phased out. What would be done with the extra space, back to being more battle hardened? And, this has probably been covered, aren't podnaughts built much faster?

I do think they're built faster--there's simply less to them. The pods come off their own production lines.

Note, however, that I'm not saying to give up the firepower, I'm saying to replace the pod system with a bunch of axially-mounted launch tubes--effectively entirely chase armament, although the tubes could be in the heart of the ship. Under a normal approach this would result in fratricide, but I'm saying to stagger the missiles and require they use off-bore launching. You give up the impulse of the tube but for an MDM that's not even peanuts. You now have the entire hull available for point defense and whatever energy armament you choose to retain.

kzt wrote:

Loren Pechtel wrote:There was almost no reason for missile pods. Before the coming of the laser head the missile defenses of wallers were considerably more effective than the missiles. Missiles posed a threat to smaller craft but were basically harassment to a waller. If you went with pods and your opponent increased their point defense to match they would have the superior ship.

That's the failure of imagination part. You are not talking about a 10% increase in point defenses, you need orders of magnitude increases. This isn't a field upgrade. This is a design a new class and sacrifice a lot to get those CMs and PDLCs/grav cannon once you manage to convince the leadership that this is a real threat. Based on the text, this is not an easy task for most Honorverse navies.

A single penetrating 20MT CA boomer seriously damaged a BC. As in destroyed 50% of the weapons and sensors. And capital ship warheads were not the 20MT of Fearless, they were gigaton range weapons. Once you saturate the defenses, which is pretty trivial to do against an old-school ship, Bad Things will happen to it.

So it's the kind of thing that takes 20-30+ years to adjust to. Assuming you don't get steamrolled by the guys with the pod ships as you learn how the monster works.

Of course you can saturate an old-school ship. I'm assuming the defenders are aware of what's going on and counterdesign--and I'm saying the podnaught design gives up more than the increase defenses to counter a podnaught. An innovation that might very well be useful in war due to the surprise factor isn't so useful in peacetime because your enemies will see what you're up to and counterdesign.

The one place where it might be of value is a fleet action if they could concentrate fire on a single ship--but my impression of the old fashioned missiles is that wasn't really how it worked. At substantial range you were only hoping to hit the enemy, not a particular ship.

Loren Pechtel wrote:
Of course you can saturate an old-school ship. I'm assuming the defenders are aware of what's going on and counterdesign--and I'm saying the podnaught design gives up more than the increase defenses to counter a podnaught. An innovation that might very well be useful in war due to the surprise factor isn't so useful in peacetime because your enemies will see what you're up to and counterdesign.

The one place where it might be of value is a fleet action if they could concentrate fire on a single ship--but my impression of the old fashioned missiles is that wasn't really how it worked. At substantial range you were only hoping to hit the enemy, not a particular ship.

I'm not convinced that anyone would react until someone they care about gets hammered by these crazy new ships.

The scientist has 32 tubes, with an implied 30 second cycle time. So squadron fires 256 missile every 30 seconds. They had 16 CMs and 32 PDLCs, so it appears reasonable to say they are designed to defend against themselves.

So they can handle 512 missiles per minute. A single BC(P) can deliver 240 missiles per minute. So a squadron of them delivers almost 4 times the missiles they are designed to handle. They go winchester after like 5 minutes, but each will have fired almost 3000 capital ship missile.

So even without trying to target just one ship the volume of fire distributed across all the Scientists seems likely to result in a very bad day for them, which will get worse then the SDs the BCs are escorting are included and then they close to energy range on the damaged fleet.

Fire control is an issue, but I suspect that not so much at SDM range.

kzt wrote:

cthia wrote:So, if I'm correctly digesting the amazing statistics laid down, it seems quite possible automation could have accounted for a 10-20% difference in total pod loadout. Even if a lack thereof didn't inhibit the design.

Huh? Have you ever seen a Navy berthing space? The crew doesn't get a private suite.

Yeah. A Nimitz-class aircraft carrier has 6,000 crew. They fit them into a ship displacing 102,000t.

This is why a lot of people find the Roland's lack of Marine capacity ridiculous. 82 crew, ~190,000t ship.

kzt wrote:

cthia wrote:So, if I'm correctly digesting the amazing statistics laid down, it seems quite possible automation could have accounted for a 10-20% difference in total pod loadout. Even if a lack thereof didn't inhibit the design.

Huh? Have you ever seen a Navy berthing space? The crew doesn't get a private suite.

Oops.

5%?...4?...3? Heck, I give up.

I've seen naval accommodations; it's why I said sardine cans upstream. (Albeit aboard the oldstyle battleships, with no air conditioning and no women). Speaking of women, the Honorverse has so many women and I was thinking they would have separate quarters and separate facilities. Due to your incredulity, I do remember Helen's conversations with the crews, and they were not separate. I was also factoring in the space saved by the use of pods and other general automation. Again, lots of space must have been wasted to be able to gut a ship.

Whatever is responsible for the eggshell factor is the only thing left to account for the capital gains in available space for the design. (Which I do remember was explained, somewhere.) Anyway, even if the women were separate that wouldn't have significantly added to the footprint either.

I did think Honorverse accommodations would be a bit better. Again, until I remembered Helen. (Poor Grayson women...and their armsmen's apoplexy.) Well, more than a bit better as far as environmental systems. The only thing left to explain the sudden windfall of available space to fit pods has to be losing the battle steel and dampening - the thing that turns them into eggshells. Must have been a heckuva lot of battle steel, but bulkheads were only feet thick, as I recall, Not yards. Anyways, I give up the ghost, and the hunt for Red October.