Last use for SL SD captured

kzt wrote:Every core system has enormous industrial capability. They can build them themselves thanks to the magic of the Honorverse, where Beowulf is going to be going from a secret RMN concept study for a system defense network to having produced a fully deployed and working system in under 6 months, using completely different fabrication systems, completely different industrial suppliers and having never produced a single component of that system previously.

Or, at least, enormous industrial potential, even if they're only using a fraction of it.

Any industrialized system capable of any sort of single drive missile production can produce multi-stage missiles for system defense, once they realize that they need the range available through MSMs/MDMs.
Cataphracts and other MSMs don't require any new technology to build. Simply a willingness to build them.

Weird Harold wrote:
What part of "too many variable to be specific" are you having problems with? Systems that don't have any outlying extraction or habitation don't need to cover the entire hyper limit those that do need the range to cover larger volumes. The point here is that any given volume can be covered by MDMs with fewer missiles. The GA doesn't have the production capacity to provide the numbers of missiles that single drive SDMs would require.

You defend the vitals of the particular system, not the whole space of the system. You don't need to defend every single industrial asset in every single system with the faire power of an entire fleet. Just like the 2 wars between Manticore and Haven and just like every war in history has shown us, being strong everywhere means you are weak everywhere.

Giving a system the minimum defence requirements and a promise of a QRF that can kick out anyone who wants to set up their own little kingdom is all that is required.

There will be a few systems in great danger of reprisals by the League, others will be in less danger and other still will require at most defences against a single BC or at most 2.

Weird Harold wrote:And who is going to rebuild the infrastructure destroyed and resurrect those killed when the Conquistadors took over and then were kicked out? Like they say, "when seconds count, the Police are only minutes away."

So your solution is to give systems with no military tradition whatsoever, no military manpower and no experience not to mention questionable loyalty all of your secret technologies that Manticore has spend decades researching just so they can be sold off to the highest bidder(League and MA/RF)?

So a year or two down the road instead of fighting the RF which may or may not have weapons that are better than the SLN you will be fighting Manticoran technology?

While we are at it why not release the designs for SD(P)? Or BC(P)? I mean it is inevitable that they will be built by other systems as well so why not speed up the process?

Why not make peace with the League and just give them the GA's tech? They will have it eventually so why not speed up the process?

Weird Harold wrote:
And just where is the GA going to come up with the manpower to man all of the defensive installations that will be established -- be ultra-conservative and and estimate a quarter of the League will sign mutual defense treaties, or 500 systems? That's going to take something like Half-a-Billion personnel!

And where are those systems going to come up with the people to man those defences? IF you plan on giving weapons to untrained people then so can the GA... You are asking where the GA will come up with the people to man those defences, while ignoring the same question again and again and again as to where the systems who get those weapons will get the trained manpower to man them.

Weird Harold wrote:Providing Training Cadre or importing locals into GA tech schools will strain GA resources as it is. Trying to garrison every allied system is unworkable.

Who said anything about garrisoning every system?

Giving weapons to newly independent systems along with a small training team from Haven, Manticore or Grayson might be preferable to giving away the only advantage the GA has.

Weird Harold wrote:
Who said anything about "donate?" "Provide" isn't the same as "Donate" and the only time I've talked about FTL separately the word I've used is "SELL." FTL comm is a potential revenue stream for GA members (and other nations with FTL comms like the Anderman Empire and Mayans.) Anyone with FTL comm capability has a choice:

So your idea is to sell the weapons and technologies that the SLN, its successor states, the MA and the RF will subsequently use to beat the GA into submission?

There is a period of time where the GA will reign supreme because no one else can touch their technology. Giving away your technology for some chump change is idiocy in its most basic form. So instead of your enemies spending 5,10 or 15 years researchning to get the technology, you sell it to them for a small sum just so they can come back a couple of years later and conquer your entire alliance. What happens if like you said a quarter of the League declares independence or neutrality and the other 3/4 of the League end up with all the goodies of the GA. Those systems will be come virtually impregnable, so basically you will be fortifying the League.

If you give away your advantage the war is lost, you might as well save everyone's time and as many lives as you can by surrendering quickly.

Weird Harold wrote:Play "dog in the manger" and lose all that revenue trying to keep their version secret.

I would rather keep my secret restricted to my side in a war and win the war rather than give away my advantage, make some money to day and then have my enemy beat me into submission with the tools I sold him.

Sigs wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Play "dog in the manger" and lose all that revenue trying to keep their version secret.

I would rather keep my secret restricted to my side in a war and win the war rather than give away my advantage, make some money to day and then have my enemy beat me into submission with the tools I sold him.

So you choose "dog-in-the-manger," Which has pretty much been your whole argument here.

Kytheros wrote:Or, at least, enormous industrial potential, even if they're only using a fraction of it.

Any industrialized system capable of any sort of single drive missile production can produce multi-stage missiles for system defense, once they realize that they need the range available through MSMs/MDMs.
Cataphracts and other MSMs don't require any new technology to build. Simply a willingness to build them.

Well and a willingness to build them really freaking large. (And I still wonder if there's s reason the second stage of the Cataohract appears to be smaller diameter than the first (do the physics require a smaller diameter drive ring opinion the second stage?)
Because the missile would have more range and higher terminal velocity (if lower terminal acceleration) if you had the quick CM drive pushing the first stage. Plus, as IIRC kzt has pointed out, arranging it that way would also have saved you having to engineer everything into the smaller terminal bus (smaller sensors, less powerful warhead)


But in any case, enormous missiles are manageable if you just want to deploy shoals of pods of them and don't need to make them compatible with shipboard missile tubes.

kzt wrote:Every core system has enormous industrial capability. They can build them themselves thanks to the magic of the Honorverse, where Beowulf is going to be going from a secret RMN concept study for a system defense network to having produced a fully deployed and working system in under 6 months, using completely different fabrication systems, completely different industrial suppliers and having never produced a single component of that system previously.

Haven has on the order of 100 systems, manticore with talbot and silesia has on the order of 100 systems, the andermanti empire has on the order of 100 systems. That is on the order of 300 systems. (give or take 50)

Quote: "A rising thunder"
When those opportunities are coupled with the fact that—unlike the citizens of the League—both Manticorans and Havenites are experienced in and thus far better inured to the strains and tensions of interstellar warfare, their alliance is probably in a position to recoup everything it’s lost as a result of the Manties’ closure of our trade lanes within a very few T-years. Certainly in a shorter time than we can recover. In fact, our projections over at Economic Analysis indicate that we’ll reach a tipping point at which the combined economies of Manticore and Haven will effectively match the economic power of the League within no more than ten to fifteen T-years.”

To recap, In 10 to 15 years the GA's 300 systems will reach economic parity with the SL's 3,000 systems. RFC has stated time and time again that manticore is the most productive world in existance. there is NO WAY that the average SL world has massive manufacturing.


My guess is that currently the average SL world has the economy equal to the the average havenite or andermanti world, twice the average economy of a silesian or talbot quadrant world.

Under those conditions, the average economy would need to increase 31% a year in order to match the SL in 10 years, 20% a year to match the SL in 15 years.

In order for the GA to match the SL economically if the average SL world had an economy equal to manticore before oyster bay, the economy would have to grow 36%-60% a year.

remember that we have RFC's statement that it would be impossible for the SL to commission it's first SDP in anything less than 6 years.

darrell wrote:RFC has stated time and time again that manticore is the most productive world in existance. there is NO WAY that the average SL world has massive manufacturing.

Did you miss the part a few books back where that all got blown up? EVERY SL world has more massive and productive manufacturing than Manticore. Even if all they make are buggy whips, they actually have a factory that makes SOMETHING.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Kytheros wrote:Or, at least, enormous industrial potential, even if they're only using a fraction of it.

Any industrialized system capable of any sort of single drive missile production can produce multi-stage missiles for system defense, once they realize that they need the range available through MSMs/MDMs.
Cataphracts and other MSMs don't require any new technology to build. Simply a willingness to build them.

Well and a willingness to build them really freaking large. (And I still wonder if there's s reason the second stage of the Cataohract appears to be smaller diameter than the first (do the physics require a smaller diameter drive ring opinion the second stage?)
Because the missile would have more range and higher terminal velocity (if lower terminal acceleration) if you had the quick CM drive pushing the first stage. Plus, as IIRC kzt has pointed out, arranging it that way would also have saved you having to engineer everything into the smaller terminal bus (smaller sensors, less powerful warhead)


But in any case, enormous missiles are manageable if you just want to deploy shoals of pods of them and don't need to make them compatible with shipboard missile tubes.

And that's all you really need for system defense purposes.
Oh, sure, getting them compatible with shipboard tubes is something you want to work towards, but most League systems don't have all that many warships in the first place. The priority is the capability to protect their own system ... and for that, shoals of very large missile pods is sufficient, if not the ideal setup.

kzt wrote:

darrell wrote:RFC has stated time and time again that manticore is the most productive world in existance. there is NO WAY that the average SL world has massive manufacturing.

Did you miss the part a few books back where that all got blown up? EVERY SL world has more massive and productive manufacturing than Manticore. Even if all they make are buggy whips, they actually have a factory that makes SOMETHING.

Have you forgotten in ART that after filerta got blown into orbital debris, which was after the yaweta strike SL analysts STILL say the 200 worlds of the GA will match the 2,000 worlds of the SL.

Quote: "A rising thunder"
"In fact, our projections over at Economic Analysis indicate that we’ll reach a tipping point at which the combined economies of Manticore and Haven will effectively match the economic power of the League within no more than ten to fifteen T-years.”

In short, The average world of the GA will have 10 times the economy of the average SL world in 10-15 year, WITH OYSTER BAY INCLUDED!

darrell wrote:...SL analysts ...

You mean Catpain Gweon, the MAlign agent? He certainly wouldn't have any reason to spin things so the Mandarins make even stupider decisions than they would naturally?

darrell wrote:In short, The average world of the GA will have 10 times the economy of the average SL world in 10-15 year, WITH OYSTER BAY INCLUDED!

I think I mentioned that the Honorverse makes a pretty poor economics text. That requires 30% growth rate sustained for a decade and no growth in the SL and you need to make the absurd assumption that the economy of the average core world is roughly equivalent to the average planet in Talbott or Silesia.