A certain RMN Officer...

SWM wrote:Neo-Bob, I believe the question about Commodore's was specifically in reference to the Honorverse, where it is most definitely a specific rank, not a position.

It's a specific rank in every navy we know about that uses English-language ranks in the Honorverse, but it's quite possible someone adopted USN-style ranks and did not have a formal rank of Commodore (heck, if there we hadn't seen a Frontier Fleet office with the rank of Commodore, I'd argue the SLN was one of them; Roszack went from Captain to Rear Admiral, and jumping ranks has got to be an extremely rare event in the SLN).

I'm newly registered to this Forum but been reading from time to time for about a year.
Yesterday I read most of this thread, and while not much of a shipper myself, it quite entertained me.
I decided to add something to the off-topic conversation concerning Commodores:

munroburton wrote:(snip)
It could be an editorial slip. I checked SoF(eARC version) and Kaplan definitely refers to Zavala as a Commodore - but almost immediately afterwards, Governor Duenas is informed he has a message from a Captain Jacob Zavala.

I do recall from reading the Hornblower novels that there were two types of Commodores - one which commanded his own ship and the first class, which got a (flag) captain to do that.

It may be some sort of courtesy practice in the RMN to call the most senior of a group of captains a commodore, when there is not a real commodore or admiral around. This would be so when messages are transmitted in a squadron or flotilla without a flag officer, everyone knows who "the commodore" means.

Zavala was the commander of the second division of Commodore Chatterjee's Rolands-squadron.
Chatterjee was one of the victims when the Sollies blew three of First Division's destroyers up at New Tuscany.

This meant that Zavala was the senior surviving CO and inherited the command of the Squadron with its remaining 5 ships. (SoF ch5)
So, while still a captain by permanent rank, he is an Acting Commodore, since he has the duties - which in my opinion explains why two different ranks are used in his case.

I'd like to add to munroburton that I don't think it's only a courtesy title in cases where one captain is actually in command of other captains. It minimizes confusion - and confusion who is talked about can be very dangerous, especially in combat.
Which is why I believe Terekhov was called Commodore, he is in charge of his own little squadron, however unofficial, and there can be no confusion about who is talked about as Captain.


Concerning the question if Commodore is actually a real rankinstead of a position I agree with SWM: There are several Commodores aside from Zavala and Chatterjee that come to mind ... Terekhov was promoted from Captain to Commodore, but at the same time given command of a squadron, which might explain it as a title. The same is true about a certain Honor Harrington just before her little .. vacation to Cerberus, although it is mentioned that Commodores have their own uniforms, which would indicate it's actually a new rank.
However, Mercedes Brigham is a Commodore and as Honor's Chief of staff not in direct command, so it can only be a real rank.



Now, slightly less off-topic: I also think that taking Tremaine as a measurement of how long promotions usually take is a mistake - I seem to remember that he was mentioned as being very young for his rank at least once.


And even less off-topic: While (as mentioned) I'm not a huge shipper, I somehow always expected there to be something between Brigham and McKeon. I can't even think of any scene that hints at it, but somehow I thought of it. And I guess it isn't worth considering for the future either.

Also, anyone tried to find a fit for Mac yet?


Well, that's enough for a first post I suppose ...

drothgery wrote:

SWM wrote:Neo-Bob, I believe the question about Commodore's was specifically in reference to the Honorverse, where it is most definitely a specific rank, not a position.

It's a specific rank in every navy we know about that uses English-language ranks in the Honorverse, but it's quite possible someone adopted USN-style ranks and did not have a formal rank of Commodore (heck, if there we hadn't seen a Frontier Fleet office with the rank of Commodore, I'd argue the SLN was one of them; Roszack went from Captain to Rear Admiral, and jumping ranks has got to be an extremely rare event in the SLN).

But we were talking specifically about the RMN, not just any navy.

Dhea wrote:I'm newly registered to this Forum but been reading from time to time for about a year.
Yesterday I read most of this thread, and while not much of a shipper myself, it quite entertained me.
I decided to add something to the off-topic conversation concerning Commodores:

munroburton wrote:(snip)
It could be an editorial slip. I checked SoF(eARC version) and Kaplan definitely refers to Zavala as a Commodore - but almost immediately afterwards, Governor Duenas is informed he has a message from a Captain Jacob Zavala.

I do recall from reading the Hornblower novels that there were two types of Commodores - one which commanded his own ship and the first class, which got a (flag) captain to do that.

It may be some sort of courtesy practice in the RMN to call the most senior of a group of captains a commodore, when there is not a real commodore or admiral around. This would be so when messages are transmitted in a squadron or flotilla without a flag officer, everyone knows who "the commodore" means.

Zavala was the commander of the second division of Commodore Chatterjee's Rolands-squadron.
Chatterjee was one of the victims when the Sollies blew three of First Division's destroyers up at New Tuscany.

This meant that Zavala was the senior surviving CO and inherited the command of the Squadron with its remaining 5 ships. (SoF ch5)
So, while still a captain by permanent rank, he is an Acting Commodore, since he has the duties - which in my opinion explains why two different ranks are used in his case.

I'd like to add to munroburton that I don't think it's only a courtesy title in cases where one captain is actually in command of other captains. It minimizes confusion - and confusion who is talked about can be very dangerous, especially in combat.
Which is why I believe Terekhov was called Commodore, he is in charge of his own little squadron, however unofficial, and there can be no confusion about who is talked about as Captain.


Concerning the question if Commodore is actually a real rankinstead of a position I agree with SWM: There are several Commodores aside from Zavala and Chatterjee that come to mind ... Terekhov was promoted from Captain to Commodore, but at the same time given command of a squadron, which might explain it as a title. The same is true about a certain Honor Harrington just before her little .. vacation to Cerberus, although it is mentioned that Commodores have their own uniforms, which would indicate it's actually a new rank.
However, Mercedes Brigham is a Commodore and as Honor's Chief of staff not in direct command, so it can only be a real rank.



Now, slightly less off-topic: I also think that taking Tremaine as a measurement of how long promotions usually take is a mistake - I seem to remember that he was mentioned as being very young for his rank at least once.


And even less off-topic: While (as mentioned) I'm not a huge shipper, I somehow always expected there to be something between Brigham and McKeon. I can't even think of any scene that hints at it, but somehow I thought of it. And I guess it isn't worth considering for the future either.

Also, anyone tried to find a fit for Mac yet?


Well, that's enough for a first post I suppose ...

welcome!

hmm finding a partner for Mac?

I do believe that no-one has tried setting up with anyone yet. though cliche as it is I often wondered about him and Honour's Grayson cook.

Dhea wrote:. . . anyone tried to find a fit for Mac yet

Not gonna happen. Mac won't let anything get between him and his mission to serve Honor Harrington.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

SWM wrote:Neo-Bob, I believe the question about Commodore's was specifically in reference to the Honorverse, where it is most definitely a specific rank, not a position.

Just call me Rob. I made that alias on a day when someone made a comment about barbarians being the cause of the fall of the Roman Empire; they weren't, that worthless and bankrupt institution fell a long time before that, imo.

I suppose I could have gone through and pulled up the quotations to prove my point earlier, but the post was too long.

So: Why does the crew of Tristram keeps calling Zavala "the commodore"? And I will have to check, but I think it came up with Terekhov as well, before he was promoted. Which is exactly why I posted that too-long wall of text to begin with. A commodore can hold the rank of commodore; and he can be in the position (as the senior officer of something squadron sized or larger).

Both of those occur in the text. Which I wanted to point out.

Rob

munroburton wrote:It could be an editorial slip. I checked SoF(eARC version) and Kaplan definitely refers to Zavala as a Commodore - but almost immediately afterwards, Governor Duenas is informed he has a message from a Captain Jacob Zavala.

I do recall from reading the Hornblower novels that there were two types of Commodores - one which commanded his own ship and the first class, which got a (flag) captain to do that.

It may be some sort of courtesy practice in the RMN to call the most senior of a group of captains a commodore, when there is not a real commodore or admiral around. This would be so when messages are transmitted in a squadron or flotilla without a flag officer, everyone knows who "the commodore" means.

Thanks for the interest, all; all I did was point out that whether the fictional RMN uses commodore as an actual rank (which they do), is is also traditional to accord the rank as a courtesy for an officer serving the function of a commodore. I didn't intend to start a major argument; and I specifically meant that the usage is correct either way--and that the author uses it both ways.

For that matter, consider all the "commodores" like Chalker, who has his flag aboard a ship with no flag deck; not much room for staff on his Lancelot, or aboard one of the Solarian light cruisers they use for squadron flagships in Roszak's flotilla. Getting flotilla command as a Captain is a good command; getting it when you are a senior Commodore means you aren't related to the right people in Frontier Fleet.

Regards, Rob

There's still a "third" variety of Commodore: a Captain who is a passenger on the ship, especially if the (position) Captain is not a (rank) Captain.

There can be only one!

That's why the O-6 who is the exec of a carrier is always referred to as "XO", not by rank. And Army/Marine (and Air Force) O-3s are referred to as "Major'.

But we ignore that silliness in our own areas.

(Juan Rico, Third Lieutenant, MI, platoon commander, "Blackie's Blackguards")

Fox2! wrote:There's still a "third" variety of Commodore: a Captain who is a passenger on the ship, especially if the (position) Captain is not a (rank) Captain.

There can be only one!

That's why the O-6 who is the exec of a carrier is always referred to as "XO", not by rank. And Army/Marine (and Air Force) O-3s are referred to as "Major'.

But we ignore that silliness in our own areas.

(Juan Rico, Third Lieutenant, MI, platoon commander, "Blackie's Blackguards")

I wonder if Honor was thinking that when she took Burdette's head

Fox2! wrote:There's still a "third" variety of Commodore: a Captain who is a passenger on the ship, especially if the (position) Captain is not a (rank) Captain.

There can be only one!

That's why the O-6 who is the exec of a carrier is always referred to as "XO", not by rank. And Army/Marine (and Air Force) O-3s are referred to as "Major'.

But we ignore that silliness in our own areas.

(Juan Rico, Third Lieutenant, MI, platoon commander, "Blackie's Blackguards")

Yes, we know the Manties boost the rank of the captain of the Marine contingent to Major on CLs so there is no confusion when someone refers to the Captain in the order of command.

Hutch wrote:The biggest problem with the Scotty-Shannon ship is that she's in a secrect base in the Haven sector and Scotty is commanding a CA Division in Talbott; talk about long-distance relationships...

So...I'm re-reading the Shadows books and am just finishing up Shadows of Freedom and...Mackenzie Graham is a pretty young woman, helping to lead a revolution, and with the message going to Montana, it is quite possible Captain (SG) Tremaine will be sent to Seraphim to support the revolution there and of course he'll meet her and....

At least the romance puts the protaganists in the same general space.


IMHO as always. YMMV.

I suggested this one some time back!!!

If Indiana and Mackenzie also introduce their "Manty" contact Firebrand to Scotty and Sir Horace....