Honorverse ramblings and musings

Hutch wrote:Not going to quote your whole message, cthia, but in regards to planetary defense.

IIRC, Mount Royal palace does have defensive systems on the ground, and they were used during MoH after the Oyster Bay attack to destroy portions of Hepasteus (sp) that were entering the atmosphere and endangering settled areas. From MoH:

....The Mount Royal Palace defenses destroyed the two of those pieces which might have threatened Landing, and the other four struck either uninhabited or only sparsely inhabited areas of the planet.

Yeah, one of the other books makes (IIRC) mention of the weather shield domes dotted around the Mount Royal grounds that cover the energy batteries defending it.

Back to cthia's other points.
Placing actual anti-ship missiles on a planets surface is problematic though. Sure the missiles have plenty of acceleration to launch themselves clear of the gravity well. Whats 0.7-2.3 g compared to the 46,000g a half-power missile cranks out. But the planets weather systems and atmosphere are going to be really unhappy to have dozens or hundreds of 100 sq km wedges hyperaccelerating masses of air around. They'd tear up the area something awful. Far more so than the vastly smaller (few square meters) wedges on SAMs or anti-tank missiles.


The thing is, against an attack you can see coming, the orbital defenses of a first-rate planet will do just as good a job of defending it as anything you could put on the ground. The only reason Oyster Bay was so devastating is that there was absolutely no warning - the first inkling anyone had of the attack was everything blowing up.
Normally there would be LACs deployed, and wedge ships out to block debries, and sidewalls and defenses active on the stations - but there was none of that.

In that one extremely specific instance additional ground based weapons to help break up or destroy debris dropping from orbit without warning would have helped. But that's basically a unique event in the entire universe - normally those same weapons would be much more useful if mounted in an orbital fort or in a ship of your home fleet.

Cthia, I think you have missed a few things.

First, way back in Honor of the Queen, we were told that everyone in the galaxy except for Grayson gave up fission centuries ago. Planets use fusion power, not fission power. There is no need to worry about special protection for fission plants.

Second, Mount Royal Palace is already protected by ground-based defenses. They are specifically mentioned as being used during Oyster Bay in Mission of Honor.

Third, planets already have defenses for normal debris, asteroid impacts, and so on. Mission of Honor tells us that the tugs in Manticore orbit are specifically trained to block debris like that with their wedge.

All of the stuff you are asking for is already in the text.

The only reason the debris from Oyster Bay was a problem is because there was no warning. The normal debris defenses didn't have time to get in place.

SWM wrote:Cthia, I think you have missed a few things.

First, way back in Honor of the Queen, we were told that everyone in the galaxy except for Grayson gave up fission centuries ago. Planets use fusion power, not fission power. There is no need to worry about special protection for fission plants.

Second, Mount Royal Palace is already protected by ground-based defenses. They are specifically mentioned as being used during Oyster Bay in Mission of Honor.

Third, planets already have defenses for normal debris, asteroid impacts, and so on. Mission of Honor tells us that the tugs in Manticore orbit are specifically trained to block debris like that with their wedge.

All of the stuff you are asking for is already in the text.

The only reason the debris from Oyster Bay was a problem is because there was no warning. The normal debris defenses didn't have time to get in place.

Yes, I apologize for the redumbdancy. I remembered some of the details of Grayson but I couldn't remember if the universe as a whole primarily used fusion as a power source or just for some other rare esoteric uses. Or just as a supplemental power source.

In the case of the tugs, their use as debris interceptors seemed inadequate and I got the impression, though they had no forewarning, that their uses in intercepting debris was a byproduct or incidental and not a formal plan. Not saying I'm right, just trying to get off the hook for not knowing.

Also, I thought the Palace security was much the same, incidental falling debris security that is really intended against terrorist groups, factions etc. already in planetary atmosphere.

I didn't know they were specifically designed for debris.

My humble apology.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:Cthia, I think you have missed a few things.

First, way back in Honor of the Queen, we were told that everyone in the galaxy except for Grayson gave up fission centuries ago. Planets use fusion power, not fission power. There is no need to worry about special protection for fission plants.

Second, Mount Royal Palace is already protected by ground-based defenses. They are specifically mentioned as being used during Oyster Bay in Mission of Honor.

Third, planets already have defenses for normal debris, asteroid impacts, and so on. Mission of Honor tells us that the tugs in Manticore orbit are specifically trained to block debris like that with their wedge.

All of the stuff you are asking for is already in the text.

The only reason the debris from Oyster Bay was a problem is because there was no warning. The normal debris defenses didn't have time to get in place.

Yes, I apologize for the redumbdancy. I remembered some of the details of Grayson but I couldn't remember if the universe as a whole primarily used fusion as a power source or just for some other rare esoteric uses. Or just as a supplemental power source.

In the case of the tugs, their use as debris interceptors seemed inadequate and I got the impression, though they had no forewarning, that their uses in intercepting debris was a byproduct or incidental and not a formal plan. Not saying I'm right, just trying to get off the hook for not knowing.

Also, I thought the Palace security was much the same, incidental falling debris security that is really intended against terrorist groups, factions etc. already in planetary atmosphere.

I didn't know they were specifically designed for debris.

My humble apology.

Remember, there are some books I haven't read and I aim to correct that. However, I don't know if that's more of a problem than the fact that much of the main series I've only formally read once.
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cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:Cthia, I think you have missed a few things.

First, way back in Honor of the Queen, we were told that everyone in the galaxy except for Grayson gave up fission centuries ago. Planets use fusion power, not fission power. There is no need to worry about special protection for fission plants.

Second, Mount Royal Palace is already protected by ground-based defenses. They are specifically mentioned as being used during Oyster Bay in Mission of Honor.

Third, planets already have defenses for normal debris, asteroid impacts, and so on. Mission of Honor tells us that the tugs in Manticore orbit are specifically trained to block debris like that with their wedge.

All of the stuff you are asking for is already in the text.

The only reason the debris from Oyster Bay was a problem is because there was no warning. The normal debris defenses didn't have time to get in place.

Yes, I apologize for the redumbdancy. I remembered some of the details of Grayson but I couldn't remember if the universe as a whole primarily used fusion as a power source or just for some other rare esoteric uses. Or just as a supplemental power source.

In the case of the tugs, their use as debris interceptors seemed inadequate and I got the impression, though they had no forewarning, that their uses in intercepting debris was a byproduct or incidental and not a formal plan. Not saying I'm right, just trying to get off the hook for not knowing.

Also, I thought the Palace security was much the same, incidental falling debris security that is really intended against terrorist groups, factions etc. already in planetary atmosphere.

I didn't know they were specifically designed for debris.

My humble apology.

I believe it was in OBS, that there was also a mention of a buoy system in place to protect the stations. Each buoy is a CL sized automated ship that is nothing but a fusion plant and wedge nodes - each creating a SD sized wedge. Their nodes are kept hot, but in standby for immediate activation to block anything attacking the station like a coat of scales. This leaves the Tug's to act as a in inner, mobile defense. In addition, the stations have sidewalls, PDLCs and CM launchers. There are also several Forts around each planet for defense, each of which controls shoals of missile pods pre-positioned around each planet.

This is not to mention any fleet units or LACS patrolling the area which may assist in any defense.

So we are talking about literally layers of defenses for each station/planet.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:Cthia, I think you have missed a few things.

First, way back in Honor of the Queen, we were told that everyone in the galaxy except for Grayson gave up fission centuries ago. Planets use fusion power, not fission power. There is no need to worry about special protection for fission plants.

Second, Mount Royal Palace is already protected by ground-based defenses. They are specifically mentioned as being used during Oyster Bay in Mission of Honor.

Third, planets already have defenses for normal debris, asteroid impacts, and so on. Mission of Honor tells us that the tugs in Manticore orbit are specifically trained to block debris like that with their wedge.

All of the stuff you are asking for is already in the text.

The only reason the debris from Oyster Bay was a problem is because there was no warning. The normal debris defenses didn't have time to get in place.

Yes, I apologize for the redumbdancy. I remembered some of the details of Grayson but I couldn't remember if the universe as a whole primarily used fusion as a power source or just for some other rare esoteric uses. Or just as a supplemental power source.

In the case of the tugs, their use as debris interceptors seemed inadequate and I got the impression, though they had no forewarning, that their uses in intercepting debris was a byproduct or incidental and not a formal plan. Not saying I'm right, just trying to get off the hook for not knowing.

Also, I thought the Palace security was much the same, incidental falling debris security that is really intended against terrorist groups, factions etc. already in planetary atmosphere.

I didn't know they were specifically designed for debris.

My humble apology.

Theemile wrote:I believe it was in OBS, that there was also a mention of a buoy system in place to protect the stations. Each buoy is a CL sized automated ship that is nothing but a fusion plant and wedge nodes - each creating a SD sized wedge. Their nodes are kept hot, but in standby for immediate activation to block anything attacking the station like a coat of scales. This leaves the Tug's to act as a in inner, mobile defense. In addition, the stations have sidewalls, PDLCs and CM launchers. There are also several Forts around each planet for defense, each of which controls shoals of missile pods pre-positioned around each planet.

This is not to mention any fleet units or LACS patrolling the area which may assist in any defense.

So we are talking about literally layers of defenses for each station/planet.

I was definitely unaware of this. Thanks.

cthia wrote:In the case of the tugs, their use as debris interceptors seemed inadequate and I got the impression, though they had no forewarning, that their uses in intercepting debris was a byproduct or incidental and not a formal plan. Not saying I'm right, just trying to get off the hook for not knowing.

Inadequate? Perhaps, but for the small numbers of active tugs, they did a remarkable amount of emergency debris clearance, particularly with as little warning as they had. Before anyone had realised an attack was underway, the three stations were all debris fields and some of the debris on a steep suborbital course. IIRC, only one tug was even in a position to intervene, out of nine total.

That's not to say the next generation of tugs won't be improved. Possibly more numerous too, although they'll probably devise some sort of dedicated low-orbit defense system for future protection.

Just some odd ramblings and musings simply as food for thought.

With Honorverse tech, I can only hope to imagine the culture shock at a microscopic level, positive and negative.

In the ramblings thread SWM and I briefly touched on some potential problems of forensics. Though SWM is undoubtedly right about forensics at least keeping up with tech, I personally have my doubts. And a criminal on the lamb can flee to the farthest corner of the universe and employ modern appearance altering tech. And I wonder just how much tech is able to invade your privacy - like the aforementioned tracking devices SWM spoke of.

But there are other Honorverse culture shocks I can only begin to imagine. For instance, the illegal drug industry. Drug use on current day Earth frightens me. I don't personally have an addictive personality. Quite the contrary. I didn't even try marijuana until my second semester freshman year in college -- serious peer pressure even from girls. I was really a square in that respect. I still am. My body just doesn't handle drugs well. Alcohol either. I've never been a real drinker. I dislike taking pain pills. Some pain pills, like oxycontin - WTF?!!! People are taking that as a recreational drug? That stuff frightens me. I was prescribed some once for pain to take for several weeks. I took two doses on separate days. The script said to take two pills every four hours for pain. I took one pill and was afraid to fall asleep! I was out of it. When I did fall asleep, I didn't awaken until the next morn still under the effects. The doctor said decrease the dosage by half. Only take one pill. That's when I realized that I was supposed to take two pills. If I had taken two I think I'd have died. Thank God I misread the directions! I tossed the pills after only two doses. Since then I always ask for script strength ibupropen for any pain needs. Doctors can't believe it because people kill over oxycontin or codeine based pills. GIVE THEM MINE!!!

I can't even believe some of the street level drugs and some of the adverse external physical effects, like some of the skin eating drugs, much less what they are. Can you imagine Honorverse street level drugs? Drugs seem to grow in weirdness and danger over time and knowledge and the availability of modern tech to produce labs that can manufacture these poisons. I fear for a modern Honorverse society's drug community at the microscopic level.

And what about cheap thrills. The longest bungee jump in the world is around 220 meters, an 8 second ~ ninth of a mile freefall. I can imagine legal full mile bungee jumps in the Honorverse. A full mile free fall! That's a copper-plated Ransom of a thought.

Since Honorverse medicine can work miracles, I suppose there are EpiPens available for many different emergencies. One being for catastrophic bee stings and poisonous snakes, fish etc. I can imagine crazy teenagers risking life and limb simply for the thrill by agitating a huge nest of bees while naked. Even some adventurous females might. We KNOW males would. Then simply whip out a handy EpiPen and voila! Crazy way to get thrills, show off and be the BMOC or BWOC.

In my time, I think the craziest thing we did for thrills was the unprofessional application of the "sleeper hold" - a wrestling move to put people to sleep. I've seen it done and idiots failing to support the victims and falls that could have severely injured or killed. That move was threatening to become an epidemic in some communities. I've seen it resurface lately on a youtube channel.

I know. I know, my wife has oftentimes mentioned that I have lots of sick #$&! in my head. But, reality oftentimes is the sickness.

https://youtu.be/oj8ZCdho3Eo


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munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:In the case of the tugs, their use as debris interceptors seemed inadequate and I got the impression, though they had no forewarning, that their uses in intercepting debris was a byproduct or incidental and not a formal plan. Not saying I'm right, just trying to get off the hook for not knowing.

Inadequate? Perhaps, but for the small numbers of active tugs, they did a remarkable amount of emergency debris clearance, particularly with as little warning as they had. Before anyone had realised an attack was underway, the three stations were all debris fields and some of the debris on a steep suborbital course. IIRC, only one tug was even in a position to intervene, out of nine total.

That's not to say the next generation of tugs won't be improved. Possibly more numerous too, although they'll probably devise some sort of dedicated low-orbit defense system for future protection.

Indeed munroburton. That one tug was more than heroic, and I said before in another thread that its name should be passed on in honor as much as the name of Nike or Fearless.

But as you've suggested, can you imagine a more formal plan with even more tugs? Short of anything sneaky like being visited by a smelly operation from a Bay of Oysters.

Cthia talks about various culture shocks between our world and Honor's, including drug addiction. I won't bother quoting it.

Yes, there are enormous differences between our world and Honor's. It's hard to imagine all the small differences. But one difference we do know of is the quality of the mental health profession.

In the story of Princess Adrienne, we see some glimpses of that. If I recall correctly, the text implies that most people with tendencies toward violence or other egregious criminal behavior are caught young and treated by mental health specialists. Apparently they do a pretty good job, in general. They can detect and treat the tendencies even before they start to manifest. The amount of criminal violence is quite low on Manticore, even several hundred years ago.

I expect that the same is true of addictive behavior. It is likely that most people prone to addiction are treated early. That won't stop addiction, of course. People will still do stupid things. But I think it will mitigate the problem a lot.