?

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:I'll remind you that the 3 second grasers are specifically noted as being significantly less powerful than the spinal graser of a Shrike.

It fires for longer, but its overall power is less. (So it'll slice better against unarmored targets, but it don't do the same level of damage to an armored or sidewall protected one in 3 seconds as the Shrike does in (presumably) less than one)

Ships armed with some non self-destructing variant of them (if such a thing can be built) can still hurt or kill LACs -- but getting into an energy range fight with LACs that have more powerful weapons, and are sidewall/bowwall protected, isn't going to be fun. If you don't kill the LAC before it (or its friends) can respond you're likely to have a very bad, if mercifully short, day.



But yes, a full scale invasion would nicely distract from any raiders you wanted to slip in. (But that invasion fleet better be a hell of a lot tougher than Galton's defenses, much less it's fleet, were -- or they better be set up as a pure decoy with time for their hyper generators to recover and them to flee before the system defenses get them)

I remember that discussion. I still reserve my vote even pending clarity of that statement. I am not certain that sidewalls can even withstand the spinal graser of a shrike if fired for 3-seconds.

Jonathan_S wrote:The text seems very clear on this

Mission of Honor wrote:The power of the torpedo’s graser wasn’t remotely comparable to that of the weapon mounted by current-generation Shrikes, yet it was more powerful than any single bomb-pumped laser head.

Mission of Honor wrote:a bomb-pulsed laser had a burst endurance of barely five thousandths of a second; a laser torpedo’s graser’s endurance was a full three seconds ... and it had a burn-through range against most sidewalls of over fifty thousand kilometers.

Mind you, a modern RMN laser-head also had a sidewall burh-through range of 50,000 km - so nearly as far. That's thanks to the improved grav lensing, such as went into the Mk16G missiles; boosting the burn-through range from 30,000 km to 50,000 km.

Note, as a comparison, a ship's energy mount is expected to achieve burn-through at range's around a full order of magnitude more -- at about 500,000 km! (Now if you're talking about a DD or even a BC graser against a waller's sidewall you'll need to be a bit closer to have much effect; but still the Shrike should be able to burn-through an SD's sidewall at 7-8 times the range a graser-torp can.

But yes, if the MAlign solved the melting itself down problem for shipboard use they could presumably also scale it up to approach BC grade like the Shrike's graser.

On the other hand RFC's energy weapons are strongly affected by range. That's why laser-heads (or the graser torp) which are so vastly weaker than a shipboard mount can still hurt enemy ships -- the shipboard weapons are normally firing at the far longer ranges mentioned and so much of their effect seems to vanish along the way. A graser torp firing from 50,000 km is likely doing about as much damage as a shot from a Shrike firing from 400,000 km; despite being (in the words of the author) not even "remotely comparable to" the Shrike's graser.

So a shipboard version of the 3 second graser, if and when such a thing could be built, is also likely have to be used from longer ranges than the g-torp fires -- which will offset much of any increase in power in that mount.

Unless, as I suggested in other threads, the spider can lure the fly in. Or, if the very quick flying fly with a wedge up its arse flies right into a web set to ensnare. That is what I meant by the MAN using the acceleration and speed of GA ships against them. Be wary of webs spun.

The hyper raiders can use the tactic of German U-boats and operate in Wolfpacks. LACs will be spread thin chasing so many ghosts. A LAC's sensor suite will not be able to find a spider-drive and the drones will be shot down. But they are searching. One of the pack will briefly show an image of itself to get the LAC's attention causing the LAC to follow it into a trap. The LAC will be hellbent on keeping its sensors on the sensor image it can't quite lock up. It will fly right into close proximity of a stealthed ship mounted 3-second graser at knife-fighting range. Defeat in detail... by putting the feet in the tail.

I have a problem accepting that a full-blown ship mounted version of a powerful weapon such as a g-torp which is developed in such a small space of a missile (even a large missile) which now enjoys a much larger energy budget and unrestricted space shouldn't exceed the power of an SD's energy weapon. Certainly on an LD. Spiders have powerful stingers.

Remember, I suggested that an LD can sneak up on a skunk and steal its stink. It doesn't really steal its stink. It simply blows the skunk's stink (arse) right out from under it.

penny wrote:
In the face of a full scale invasion by the MAN and the RFN's ships hypering in, I doubt the RMN would have the time or resources to investigate ghost images happening all over the system at the same time so many impeller signatures are hypering in.

<snip>

Currently, only 1 RFN Navy has Wallers (Mannerheim), and it has fewer than 36 ( the size of the largest SDF wall, Beowulf's), and most of those are DNs. The rest of the RFN SDFs were smaller than Mesa's 25 BCs. And a portion of those are needed elsewhere for defense, so at most 8-12 classic DNs are available for offensive actions.

Yes, you can build them, but it's going to take 4-6 years to build new wallers, assuming you have the completed infrastructure to do so.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Do forgive me for snipping some of your post. What do you think about this? I always assumed that not only would the RFN not have the latest generation of ships, but their Navy would appear very small compared to what it actually is. The RFN's main order of battle is being worked up in some system similar to Bolthole. The RFN cannot appear to be a powerhouse so soon. They must withhold the truth about their true order of battle as sincerely as the Peeps did. A large RFN would draw serious attention. And if those are not modern warships with the latest toys, if I were top brass, I would give orders to showcase what they can do. Nobody in the GA should be worried about them. Rightfully so.

Very much agreed that the RFN is above board (to all appearances) and therefore has no hidden yards and no hidden fleet being worked up anywhere. There is no loose thread that the GA may want to poke at (other than the detachment that visits Felix every now and again) which might unravel things that the RF wants to keep secret.

If the RFN is to the MAN as Galton could have been, then when the war begins Darius will share tech and the RFN will be supported properly. Why should Darius not give the RFN the latest warships. Technically they are allies. And why should Darius not use the experienced officers and manpower of the RFN?

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:True. All plans have the ability to end up in the crapper. And quickly. But if their hyper combat is successful because their technology and strategy has an advantage initially, then they will be fine. You must believe in your strategy. No need to second guess yourself until the need to second guess yourself.

If they have a tech edge, then sure, the advantage is theirs in the engagements where that edge is of value.

But that doesn't change the balance of the war. As I said, taking out several dozen civilian freighters will not hurt the GA economy much less its war production. Maybe taking several dozen military freighters might put a small crimp in logistics, but those are riskier propositions and likely to be noticed sooner.

Hurt the GA economy? The MA will be going for a short victorious war. They will not be concerned with hurting the economy of a financial powerhouse. That type of strategy of relying on hitting Manticore or Haven in the pocket requires copious amounts of time to work. If even possible. But it will hurt outlying system's economies. Those newer systems taken in by Manticore. Requiring the RMN to redeploy and possibly even subsidize these systems whose economies are now hurting because they were attacked simply because they are now associated with Manticore.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:He didn't give hints about Galton. He didn't give hints about the entire MAN. Let alone their tech. Not only is there plenty of things of which we were given no hint, a lot of those things came out of left field.

Galton was indeed a surprise because it was so atypical of RFC. But one exception does not make a rule.

He did tell us about the MAN way back, before we heard anything about spider drives, streak drives, Sharks, Ghosts, torpedoes, or monitor-sized ships.

Anyway, like I said, he still has time to give us the necessary hints and pave the technology ladder to his usual style. So you may be right that the MAlign has more toys to their arsenal that haven't been shown. Heck, I wholeheartedly agree with that, because the LDs don't make sense as they are. There must be more to the strategy. It's just hard to divine what it might be.

I suppose I will accept that he gave hints of the MAN. If you want to call what he portrayed as the MAN a hint. That is why I had to argue for months if not years with a certain poster that the Mesan Alignment even had a navy. RFC made it look like all the MAN was was a few ragtag quickly thrown together ships that could only sneak in a system and sucker punch. I don't recall a warning before Oyster Bay. Anyway, the precedent has been set, so all bets are off, in my book. And, I hardly think we can assess the author's writing style for the end of his main series since he has never written for the end of his main series. That is unchartered space.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:I don't think you are looking at the big picture. If this is happening in every important, or somewhat important system then a lot more freighters are disappearing.

I don't think you're looking at a picture big enough.

"Every important or somewhat important system" is several hundred systems. Even if we assume those ships are simple destroyers, there are exactly two Navies in the Galaxy that operate 500 destroyers and that's the SLN and RHN. Both are many-times-over multi-system polities with populations likely over 100 billion for Haven.

If we restrict to just GA's important and somewhat important systems, we must still be talking about 50 systems. Assuming two ships per system, you still need 100 destroyers. And given that some of those systems are pretty far for a trip from Felix, more than likely the MAN needs 100 cruisers (a mix of light and heavy), not destroyers.

Meanwhile, the MAN was started less than 20 years ago and "up until recently had a handful of destroyers and light cruisers." They don't have enough ships to make a dent in the GA economy for the next decade or two, much less that of the entire Galaxy. And if they restrict to the GA, that reduces the time that someone is going to notice something amiss.

Guys... a pause for dramatic effect let me let you in on a little secret. This is sci-fi. Contrary to what all of you believe, it does not take years to build a large navy in relative sci-fi time. In real time, yes. But time in sci-fi is all relative. In real time it takes years. In relative time it takes mere hours, minutes and or seconds. Or however much time it takes the author to bang it out on his laptop. Granted, it may take days if the author is actually banging on his old and trusted Remington. An entire system and navy was created out of thin air and pixie dust in the form of Galton. The author is a god of his universe.

And I didn't mean it literally that so many systems will be attacked. What I meant is that it will be happening randomly all over as many systems.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:]But let's go back to my notion of the big picture. Manticore has taken a lot of systems under its wing. These systems will be crying bloody murder about losing shipments. The RMN will have to respond by redeploying forces. Those forces will be dependent on shipments that might never arrive. Even communication between the picket and the MBS could be severed because the MA will surely have no respect for dispatch boats either. And, even though a lot of the traditional strategy and tactics when taking on the MA will have to be flushed down the toilet, much of it will remain the same. Like the need to thin the main battle components out. The MA cannot allow the GA to remain concentrated any more than the Peeps could allow the RMN to, or vice versa.

You're assuming that each destroyer/light cruiser could take several ships in each system. That's not going to happen, because we know insertion is going to be a week-long effort at a minimum, several times that for the more important systems with more traffic. All the GA systems will have LAC patrols and sufficient number of recon drones to make anything in a tighter schedule too risky.

As I calculated above, there's no way the MAN can dedicate 5 light cruisers per system, for a total of 250 ships. They don't have 250 units.

And they're not going to run down dispatch boats. Having a higher speed in hyper is irrelevant if you can't maintain a lock, and any DB worth its name is going to pull higher acceleration than an MAN warship. The MAN may have a higher speed limit, but by the time it has reached that speed, the DB has pulled away so far that it's not in sensor range any more (a DB with military grade particle shielding could reach 0.6c @ 700 gravities in 7.3 hours; an MAN ship pursuing at 500 gravities would take 10.2 hours to reach the same speed, at which point the DB is 52 light-minutes ahead, which is more than double the current sensor horizon).

You are assuming that these poor systems have any kind of significant sensors. Will the sensor suite of LACs pick up faint ghost signatures? Systems can be picked for small picket size and inferior sensors. As well as lackluster officers like Pavel Young, etc. Also, as far as Yachts and dispatch boats, this commerce raiding strategy is predicated on opportunity. If the opportunity presents itself, any and everything will be shot. A yacht could be carrying someone important.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:I am at a loss as to why you think it would be a huge waste of resources. First off, these hyper raiders would be built in adequate numbers to wage war in hyper around the galaxy.

Sure, but if wishes were fishes...

The problem is that you have to account for the time it needs to build such ships. As I said above, there are exactly two navies that operated that many light warships. Per the economics of the HV, Darius and the MAN simply cannot field that many ships.

Then there's the cost of opportunity. During the decades it would take to build this many ships, they're not building the big combatants. And the personnel they dedicate to these hyper raiders are not crewing the big ships either.

Do you have any idea how long it took to build Galton and it's infrastructure? The author does not need wishes or fishes. Pixie dust and a Remington will do just fine. I am not saying that in the end all of you won't turn out to be right. But I just don't worry about what can or can't happen, should or shouldn't happen, or will or won't behind the camera in sci-fi. I just don't.

Another thing I never shared. Consider how large the SL is, and how much graft and corruption there was. Consider the hold the Alignment had on the SL. How many ships could the MA have diverted/stolen from the SL over the years. What I would like to know is how Theemile's tagline is applied to the MA and SL navy ships.

Theemile's tagline:
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships.”

How difficult would it be for the MAN to refit "acquired" SLN ships to their own standards?

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:And if my suggestion that this strategy would be successful as I think it would be... no loss of ships because of an insurmountable advantage, (more on that later) then it would not be a waste of resources at all. Remember, the GA is not even aware of what is happening and that they are in a war. And when they do, it isn't like those many hyper-raiders cannot be re-tasked for an assault on major systems when the time comes. Or that they cannot undertake a more traditional task or attacks on commerce in-system.

It seems like that they can't. Those are likely to be very small ships. A GA system with a LAC screen can probably take on them.

To be able to retask them to attack a system with a LAC screen, they'd have to be at least cruiser-sized, which makes the proposition even less feasible.

Retasking to attack in conjunction with the MAN and the RFN during a full-scale invasion.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:Do consider that during the opening phase of war on major systems, spider-drive ships do not have to sneak in. Let the MBS see the many faint ghost images all over the system. LOL It will not be anything like seeing a plethora of hyper footprints created by wedges where there is no danger of losing track of a single one of them.

"Sneaking in" implies being able to be away from the point of emergence when a drone (or a missile) arrives to take a look. The problem is not the fact that the hyper footprint is seen -- the ones for Oyster Bay were. If you arrive within a few light-hours in any Tier 1 or 2 system, the ready squadron can be on you in less than half an hour. 30 min @ 210 gravities gives you 11 light-seconds displacement, which is more than the known range for detecting a spider ship (1 ls), but the defenders are likely going to deploy a lot of recon drones at this emergence point.

They're not going to find all ships... but the law of averages says they are going to find many and take them out. That gives the defenders access to the MAN technology (stealth and spider drive). This is not the best way to start the war.

During a full-scale invasion the ready squadron will be headed towards the inner-system to concentrate forces. And I used sneak-in loosely. The hyper raiders new task is to be seen hypering in. They want to be seen. They want to cause the RMN to send elements to check out ghost images that may or may not be an actual ship. GR drones will be eaten for lunch.

Thinksmarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:P.S. I forgot to add that those newer systems will be receiving a lot more freighters than usual. They are under the mighty Manty wing and there's a need for a lot of goods. The commerce raiding strategy will also include yachts and anything else. We are talking about the MA.

Why would the MAN dedicate a warship to take out a yacht that places them out of play for weeks at a time?

Or are you no longer suggesting the hyperspace raider strategy?

Sure, the hyperspace raider strategy is opportunistic. Everything is on the menu. These things are tasked to destroy ships and raise hell. Preferably without incident or witnesses for as long as possible

penny wrote:The hyper raiders can use the tactic of German U-boats and operate in Wolfpacks. LACs will be spread thin chasing so many ghosts. A LAC's sensor suite will not be able to find a spider-drive and the drones will be shot down. But they are searching. One of the pack will briefly show an image of itself to get the LAC's attention causing the LAC to follow it into a trap. The LAC will be hellbent on keeping its sensors on the sensor image it can't quite lock up. It will fly right into close proximity of a stealthed ship mounted 3-second graser at knife-fighting range. Defeat in detail... by putting the feet in the tail.

A bit of historic correction. That was NOT the tactics of German U-boat wolfpacks.

In some situations their tactics may have had the effect of drawing a convoy escort onto the first sub to make a sighting report; but that wasn't the German's goal.

And U-boats that were going after convoys actively avoided engaging the escorts whenever possible -- they certainly didn't try to lure them into ambushes.

The Germans invested a lot of R&D into high frequency burst transmitters to allow U-boats to communicate with each other, and back to shore, in ways they believed that the Allies (or at least the convoy escorts) would not be able to localize.

The Germans operated in a wolf pack mostly to minimize chances that a convoy would slip past just over the horizon. It was primarily a way to extend the very limited sensor range (of the Mk.I eyeball from the sub's conning town or periscope) the subs had. A wolfpack could form a scouting line, with slight overlap between their horizons and if one spotted a convoy would radio the others, and naval command ashore, that sighting report before moving in for its own attack. And, like I mentioned, the Germans put in radio tech they believed would prevent the convoy escorts from using that sighting report to vector in on the U-boat.

Unfortunately for them, they were incorrect about that and HF/DF, or Huff-Duff, allowed convoy escorts to almost instantly get a bearing on the transmitting sub -- allowing one escort to go chase it under until the convoy was past (even if, until at least mid-war, they didn't have enough escorts to stay and ensure the sub was destroyed rather than just driven off)

A further misfortune for the Germans was that even the surfaced speed of U-boats was slow enough that the "wolf pack" would show up in dribs and drabs over hours making generally solo attacks on the convoy, or getting driven away and having to try to "race" around at speed not much higher than the convoy itself to reposition for another attack attempt.

So no, they weren't luring an escort out where the wolf pack could mob it; they were all trying to avoid detection and attention from the escorts. It's just that their radio wasn't an immune to direction finding as they thought -- and so their standing orders to transmit first and attack second often drew attack from escorts. But, almost without fail, the reaction of the U-boat wasn't to fire on it but to dive and try to evade -- they cared about sinking the freighter not the escorts.

(Quite late in the war, faced with too many escorts to evade, this finally changed a little with things like the G7es acoustic homing torpedo to try to thin down escorts to open a path to the convoy -- but it wasn't very successful and soon "Foxer" countermeasures reduced even the weapons initial low levels of success)

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:The hyper raiders can use the tactic of German U-boats and operate in Wolfpacks. LACs will be spread thin chasing so many ghosts. A LAC's sensor suite will not be able to find a spider-drive and the drones will be shot down. But they are searching. One of the pack will briefly show an image of itself to get the LAC's attention causing the LAC to follow it into a trap. The LAC will be hellbent on keeping its sensors on the sensor image it can't quite lock up. It will fly right into close proximity of a stealthed ship mounted 3-second graser at knife-fighting range. Defeat in detail... by putting the feet in the tail.

A bit of historic correction. That was NOT the tactics of German U-boat wolfpacks.

In some situations their tactics may have had the effect of drawing a convoy escort onto the first sub to make a sighting report; but that wasn't the German's goal.

And U-boats that were going after convoys actively avoided engaging the escorts whenever possible -- they certainly didn't try to lure them into ambushes.

The Germans invested a lot of R&D into high frequency burst transmitters to allow U-boats to communicate with each other, and back to shore, in ways they believed that the Allies (or at least the convoy escorts) would not be able to localize.

The Germans operated in a wolf pack mostly to minimize chances that a convoy would slip past just over the horizon. It was primarily a way to extend the very limited sensor range (of the Mk.I eyeball from the sub's conning town or periscope) the subs had. A wolfpack could form a scouting line, with slight overlap between their horizons and if one spotted a convoy would radio the others, and naval command ashore, that sighting report before moving in for its own attack. And, like I mentioned, the Germans put in radio tech they believed would prevent the convoy escorts from using that sighting report to vector in on the U-boat.

Unfortunately for them, they were incorrect about that and HF/DF, or Huff-Duff, allowed convoy escorts to almost instantly get a bearing on the transmitting sub -- allowing one escort to go chase it under until the convoy was past (even if, until at least mid-war, they didn't have enough escorts to stay and ensure the sub was destroyed rather than just driven off)

A further misfortune for the Germans was that even the surfaced speed of U-boats was slow enough that the "wolf pack" would show up in dribs and drabs over hours making generally solo attacks on the convoy, or getting driven away and having to try to "race" around at speed not much higher than the convoy itself to reposition for another attack attempt.

So no, they weren't luring an escort out where the wolf pack could mob it; they were all trying to avoid detection and attention from the escorts. It's just that their radio wasn't an immune to direction finding as they thought -- and so their standing orders to transmit first and attack second often drew attack from escorts. But, almost without fail, the reaction of the U-boat wasn't to fire on it but to dive and try to evade -- they cared about sinking the freighter not the escorts.

(Quite late in the war, faced with too many escorts to evade, this finally changed a little with things like the G7es acoustic homing torpedo to try to thin down escorts to open a path to the convoy -- but it wasn't very successful and soon "Foxer" countermeasures reduced even the weapons initial low levels of success)

Thanks for that. And I don't doubt you are correct. I probably shouldn't have used the word "lure". The documentary I remember talked about the Wolfpack working in unison to get a better firing solution. One sub would cause the warship/ship to turn -- to chase it or for whatever reason that I can't remember -- offering its vulnerable side to another sub.

penny wrote:Hurt the GA economy? The MA will be going for a short victorious war. They will not be concerned with hurting the economy of a financial powerhouse. That type of strategy of relying on hitting Manticore or Haven in the pocket requires copious amounts of time to work. If even possible. But it will hurt outlying system's economies. Those newer systems taken in by Manticore. Requiring the RMN to redeploy and possibly even subsidize these systems whose economies are now hurting because they were attacked simply because they are now associated with Manticore.
[snip]

Guys... a pause for dramatic effect let me let you in on a little secret. This is sci-fi. Contrary to what all of you believe, it does not take years to build a large navy in relative sci-fi time. In real time, yes. But time in sci-fi is all relative. In real time it takes years. In relative time it takes mere hours, minutes and or seconds. Or however much time it takes the author to bang it out on his laptop. Granted, it may take days if the author is actually banging on his old and trusted Remington. An entire system and navy was created out of thin air and pixie dust in the form of Galton. The author is a god of his universe.

And I didn't mean it literally that so many systems will be attacked. What I meant is that it will be happening randomly all over as many systems.


[snip]

Another thing I never shared. Consider how large the SL is, and how much graft and corruption there was. Consider the hold the Alignment had on the SL. How many ships could the MA have diverted/stolen from the SL over the years. What I would like to know is how Theemile's tagline is applied to the MA and SL navy ships.

Theemile's tagline:
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships.”

How difficult would it be for the MAN to refit "acquired" SLN ships to their own standards?

You were the one who suggested the MAlign would turn to commerce raiding. That's never been a path to a short victorious war -- it takes time, lots of time, to force a nation to its knees with even near total blockades; much less some lesser level of shipping losses.

If you think the MAlign is going for a short war then they shouldn't be devoting any significant resources to commerce raiding because that's force that isn't contributing to their quick war.

In the book SVW Haven send some of their large number of existing light units pre-war out to raid and harass; but as soon as the war started that effectively stopped. Once the war started they had better uses for those ships than hitting shipping whose loss could only matter in a long war.


As for building times your answer almost smacks of moving the goalposts; replying with writing time when it's clear that people were talking about in-universe time within the narrative. RFC tries to have the Honorverse take into account how long it would take to do things -- he doesn't just let navies snap their fingers and have new fleets of fully upgraded new ships. He tells the story of the tradeoffs they make between doing refits of what they have vs new more capable builds (is 75% as good now better than the full capability later) or deciding whether to hold back a new tech until you've the mass to make its initial deployment as effective as possible vs using what you have right now to stem the tide or try to bluff the enemy.

There are a few times he's surprised the reader with things that have been going on for years without us being aware (Galton for example) -- but he's clear that in-universe Galton didn't appear instantly. That's why there were all those colonization ships years back, when it was being built out, whose trail the GA eventually followed to the system.

It's not impossible that he'll surprise us with some off-screen naval build-up that the MAlign or the RF has been working on unmentioned for years. But he's shown some things about their build-up and navies -- and in ways that seem incompatible with entire other unmentioned building programs. (If there were hundreds of hybrid-spiders already on the ways then the various Detweiler conversations about naval building would have no logical reason not to mention them. They'd definitely know of any such massive build-up of their navy; and they're discussing what forces they have now or will have in the next several years. Failing to mention what would be the numerically most significant part of your future navy would be bizarre in that context)


And, as for refitting SLN ships to MAN standards, I guess it depends on how low the MAN's standards are
But more seriously this is like asking about taking a 1890s pre-dreadnought and refitting it to dreadnought standards.

It's possible, but it requires a yard capable of building a new dreadnought; will take longer than building a new dreadnought; consequently will cost more than building a new dreadnought; and the end result will still be less capable than a new dreadnought. So, unless you need to for political (see the US Navy's "New Navy" monitors**) or treaty (see interwar reconstructions of BBs) it's just not time, effort, or cost effective to do that kind of major upgrade.

--
With the "New Navy" monitors Congress would not authorize new construction, but was eventually convinced in the 1870s to allocated funds to repair and rebuild 10 ex-Civil War monitors. The navy didn't quite use the funds to just build 10 new ships with the same names, then transfer the ships' bells over; but it wasn't far off. When finally done about a decade later the "repaired" monitors were much larger, faster, and more heavily armed (and already hopelessly obsolete again)

penny wrote:<snip> Another thing I never shared. Consider how large the SL is, and how much graft and corruption there was. Consider the hold the Alignment had on the SL. How many ships could the MA have diverted/stolen from the SL over the years. What I would like to know is how Theemile's tagline is applied to the MA and SL navy ships.

Theemile's tagline:
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships.”

How difficult would it be for the MAN to refit "acquired" SLN ships to their own standards?

It depends on what standards you are applying.

The Beowulf SDs were pretty much SLN tech - maybe different model - but same bits and parts for the most part. End result was something an SLN Admiral or Sailor would feel at home in.

In the same vein, a 1875 RMN SD would have felt much the same to an SLN sailor - but with RMN branded parts - Kinda like the differences between a BMW 5 series and Mercedes C class from the same year kitted out the same. and In 1905, putting a Peep (or SLN) ship into RMN service wasn't a big deal. Change out a few modules, write some new code and upload the RMN protocol standards - voila - you have a "Meh" Waller. However, it's still a SLN or Peep waller at it's heart, with better comms. ECM and upgraded missiles in it's tubes.

And her is where the difference lies - starting with it's multidrive and LRM missiles, the RMN built ships with different sized tubes. Fusion drives required a containment chamber in the feed tube to spin up the reactor. Different ratios of the ship were allocated to sidewall generators, propulsion, habitation, weapons systems. Base concepts were rearranged to optimize the ships for the combat they were destined for.

So taking even an RMN ship which had gotten some updates and trying to update it to the latest standards - effectively and cheaply - became impossible. It was quicker, cheaper, and less resource intensive to start fresh and build new. And the outcome was better.

So when I said it depends on the standards you are apply, the MAlign went a different path. Their missiles are designed to fit in standard missile tubes of Cruisers or Wallers, so a standard ship can be used to fire the missiles with little or no upgrades.

But

If you want to fire their massive capital missiles - you needs pods, which means a Podlayer. and that's a entire redesign of ship internals and armor - so it's not going to happen in a refit.

If you want to fire alot of missiles, you need to add more firecontrol, which mean rearranging the outside of the ship - doable, but it will only add so much without taking away something else without ripping off all the armor.

Similiar with anti missile systems - Modern RMN ships have 3-6x what their 1900 predecessors had - and that means rearranging the surfaces again - and ripping up the armor and moving all the existing weapons.

If you want spider drive - that's a whole other chassis - so no refit.

G-torp - you might be able to sling 1 or 2 per SD, but you will need to fire them before you enter combat because they will block sensors and weapons. If you want more, convert a freighter or build an LD.

I know you knew most of this, but if you want to use 1900s SLN stock, either you're taking a SLN Vega class SD with a few upgrades to add more firecontrol and comms in 2-3 months time, or doing a massive upgrade to an optimized state for the low end MAN or the RFN hardware and leaving the SD for at least 2-3 years in a yard, and getting a result that still will be junk when compared to one of the few upgraded Gryphons, and completely outgunned by a non keyhole Medusa.

Jonathan_S wrote:You were the one who suggested the MAlign would turn to commerce raiding. That's never been a path to a short victorious war -- it takes time, lots of time, to force a nation to its knees with even near total blockades; much less some lesser level of shipping losses.

You are missing the point and making the same common mistake again by judging the MAN by the tactics and strategy adopted by traditional navies. The MA is not turning to commerce raiding. They are employing an updated modern version of hyper warfare ON commerce and ships. There is a huge difference. It was a plan from the beginning. And they are not implementing the tactic to bring anyone to its knees. They will certainly take that as a side effect if it happens to occur.

What the MAN are going for is to spread the enemy forces thin. Remember how the forces in the MBS were drawn down so thin that forces from Home Fleet were being detached? The MAN cannot afford the MBS or the Haven system's forces to remain concentrated in-system when they attack. They would want to cause a significant redeployment. And I think they can accomplish that if this commerce raiding strategy works because ordinarily the enemy knows what forces you are using to raid commerce. Recall that Theisman knew 8th Fleet's order of battle. So they could plan to send a larger contingent against her. That Intel would not be known against a covert hyper raiding strategy. The RMN will continue to lose ships until they figure out what is happening. What will happen is Manticore with have to send a much larger element all over the galaxy to try to plug the leak since nothing seems to be working.

Again, Manticore will not know what is happening and that the war has begun. So, whatever time these hyper raiders are at work does not count towards a short victorious war.

Jonathan_S wrote:If you think the MAlign is going for a short war then they shouldn't be devoting any significant resources to commerce raiding because that's force that isn't contributing to their quick war.

In the book SVW Haven send some of their large number of existing light units pre-war out to raid and harass; but as soon as the war started that effectively stopped. Once the war started they had better uses for those ships than hitting shipping whose loss could only matter in a long war.

Traditionally you would be correct. It would be contributing to a short war if the Home System's forces are drawn down as much as possible. Do you think the MA should leave the contingent in the MBS concentrated? Are you forgetting about the other side effect of commerce raiding of spreading the enemy forces thin? And when you have no intel on the order of battle of the raiders and can't seem to stop them, you will have to send an inordinate amount of force.

Jonathan_S wrote:There are a few times he's surprised the reader with things that have been going on for years without us being aware (Galton for example) -- but he's clear that in-universe Galton didn't appear instantly. That's why there were all those colonization ships years back, when it was being built out, whose trail the GA eventually followed to the system.

It's not impossible that he'll surprise us with some off-screen naval build-up that the MAlign or the RF has been working on unmentioned for years. But he's shown some things about their build-up and navies -- and in ways that seem incompatible with entire other unmentioned building programs. (If there were hundreds of hybrid-spiders already on the ways then the various Detweiler conversations about naval building would have no logical reason not to mention them. They'd definitely know of any such massive build-up of their navy; and they're discussing what forces they have now or will have in the next several years. Failing to mention what would be the numerically most significant part of your future navy would be bizarre in that context)

That's my entire point. Almost everything about the Mesan Alignment happened off screen. Has to happen off screen. Is happening offscreen now. There is still so much about the MAN and the alignment and the RF that we do not know. The author is developing it all offscreen.

Heck, a lot about the RFN could happen offscreen. The original plan was for the RFN to adopt needy systems and protect them. How were they supposed to do that against what was left of the SLN if they were not supposed to grow and have tech that could compete with the SLN. Where was the navy that was implied to be more powerful than the still larger SLN going to come from?

penny wrote:The original plan was for the RFN to adopt needy systems and protect them. How were they supposed to do that against what was left of the SLN if they were not supposed to grow and have tech that could compete with the SLN. Where was the navy that was implied to be more powerful than the still larger SLN going to come from?

They did NOT need a powerful navy in the original plan, since they were going to be neutral in the war between the Solarian League and Haven. It was Haven's navy that was supposed to be as big and powerful as the SLN; this was to be accomplished by making the SLN obsolete and corrupt, while Haven grew by conquest. The two sides should then have been evenly matched and would fight each other to exhaustion, with the Renaissance Factor gathering in the remains. That plan did not need an RFN that was of any size and it was doomed the moment that the Manticore - Haven combatants developed the modern missile pod and multidrive missiles.

The Malign has not yet come up with a new plan and the RF has not come up with the new ships and technologies that may be needed for whatever that plan may be. Perhaps it will be the MAN and RFN conquering human space, but we will see.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:The original plan was for the RFN to adopt needy systems and protect them. How were they supposed to do that against what was left of the SLN if they were not supposed to grow and have tech that could compete with the SLN. Where was the navy that was implied to be more powerful than the still larger SLN going to come from?

They did NOT need a powerful navy in the original plan, since they were going to be neutral in the war between the Solarian League and Haven. It was Haven's navy that was supposed to be as big and powerful as the SLN; this was to be accomplished by making the SLN obsolete and corrupt, while Haven grew by conquest. The two sides should then have been evenly matched and would fight each other to exhaustion, with the Renaissance Factor gathering in the remains. That plan did not need an RFN that was of any size and it was doomed the moment that the Manticore - Haven combatants developed the modern missile pod and multidrive missiles.

The Malign has not yet come up with a new plan and the RF has not come up with the new ships and technologies that may be needed for whatever that plan may be. Perhaps it will be the MAN and RFN conquering human space, but we will see.

Remain neutral? Against the remnants of a still much larger, arrogant, bully of an SLN? You don't think you're being a bit naive? The SL would have been furious about the RFN gobbling up their territory. The only reason the SLN don't kick the GA's arse now is that they can't. But a weak navy gobbling up their territory would be gutted.

At any rate, how can the RFN protect anyone if they cannot protect themselves???