SLN Reserve

Jonathan_S wrote:OTOH it might mean that they're still squeaky clean but haven't had all the builders faults shaken out of them yet (especially if the SLN was insane enough to dump them into reserves without a full set of acceptance trials)

Now THAT is one of the REAL potential major problems.

Jonathan_S wrote:And even worse if the yards and workers know a ship it destinted to go straight to reserve - and whatever inspectors sign off on it as being acceptable are known to be lazy, ineffective, or corrupt you might get real sloppy garbage work on those straight to mothball ships. (Stuff where even if the inspectors were corrupt you couldn't get away with on an ship destined for active duty because normal use would rapidly expose your fuckups -- but if they get found a century from now? Who cares)

Possible but unlikely. Far too great risk for the possible reward.

Tenshinai wrote:

MaxxQ wrote:Makes one wonder about the condition of ships that haven't necessarily had anyone onboard in 50 or more years. I admit that the mothballed ships MAY have had caretaker crews, but considering the rampant corruption in the SLN, it's plausible to assume that the caretaker crews only exist on paper, or maybe they actually exist, but have never set foot on any of those ships.

I would say that that is unlikely, as that isn´t corruption, that´s stupidity as anyone taking even the slightest look at matters will find that there IS blatant corruption to a level that you simply cannot overlook.

More likely, there ARE caretaker crews, and they probably spend somewhere between half and one tenth of the time they´re supposed to on their job. But if that job includes minor fixes and replacements, they´re probably done and then "billed twice".

That way they can´t be accused of not doing their jobs without someone making a lot more effort than it´s really worth.

For 9 out of 10 ships it will add maybe a week or two of work for a skeleton crew, with the rest turning up larger problems or happens to be in better than expected condition.

This suggests that there are no caretakers (at least, none onboard):

Storm From the Shadows, Chapter 23 wrote:That didn't mean as much in Battle Fleet as it might have in other navies, given the huge percentage of Battle Fleet's wall which spent virtually all of its time in what the SLN euphemistically referred to as "Ready Reserve Status." It was quite possible for an admiral to spend several T-years in command of a squadron of superdreadnoughts, accruing the seniority—and drawing the pay—which went with that assignment, while the superdreadnoughts in question simply went right on floating around in their mothballed parking orbits without a single soul on board.

Vince wrote:

Tenshinai wrote:I would say that that is unlikely, as that isn´t corruption, that´s stupidity as anyone taking even the slightest look at matters will find that there IS blatant corruption to a level that you simply cannot overlook.

More likely, there ARE caretaker crews, and they probably spend somewhere between half and one tenth of the time they´re supposed to on their job. But if that job includes minor fixes and replacements, they´re probably done and then "billed twice".

That way they can´t be accused of not doing their jobs without someone making a lot more effort than it´s really worth.

For 9 out of 10 ships it will add maybe a week or two of work for a skeleton crew, with the rest turning up larger problems or happens to be in better than expected condition.

This suggests that there are no caretakers (at least, none onboard):

Storm From the Shadows, Chapter 23 wrote:That didn't mean as much in Battle Fleet as it might have in other navies, given the huge percentage of Battle Fleet's wall which spent virtually all of its time in what the SLN euphemistically referred to as "Ready Reserve Status." It was quite possible for an admiral to spend several T-years in command of a squadron of superdreadnoughts, accruing the seniority—and drawing the pay—which went with that assignment, while the superdreadnoughts in question simply went right on floating around in their mothballed parking orbits without a single soul on board.

I would expect there is a skeleton caretaker crew, however their care taking may consist of taking one of the ships assigned small boats out of its berth at the station, confirming the ship is still where it is supposed to be and fixing obvious faults, once every few months or so.

Vince wrote:This suggests that there are no caretakers (at least, none onboard):

Storm From the Shadows, Chapter 23 wrote:That didn't mean as much in Battle Fleet as it might have in other navies, given the huge percentage of Battle Fleet's wall which spent virtually all of its time in what the SLN euphemistically referred to as "Ready Reserve Status." It was quite possible for an admiral to spend several T-years in command of a squadron of superdreadnoughts, accruing the seniority—and drawing the pay—which went with that assignment, while the superdreadnoughts in question simply went right on floating around in their mothballed parking orbits without a single soul on board.

I couldn't find that quote, but that's why I think there's the two levels of Reserve. Although I thought Ready Reserve would actually have had some people aboard, while the real Reserve would have been totally empty, waiting for an emergency that you needed thousands of extra ships.

Vince wrote:This suggests that there are no caretakers (at least, none onboard):

Storm From the Shadows, Chapter 23 wrote:That didn't mean as much in Battle Fleet as it might have in other navies, given the huge percentage of Battle Fleet's wall which spent virtually all of its time in what the SLN euphemistically referred to as "Ready Reserve Status." It was quite possible for an admiral to spend several T-years in command of a squadron of superdreadnoughts, accruing the seniority—and drawing the pay—which went with that assignment, while the superdreadnoughts in question simply went right on floating around in their mothballed parking orbits without a single soul on board.

Actually, that doesn´t tell us anything.
Mothballed ships wouldn´t have any caretakers onboard 99% of the time anyway.




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Castenea wrote:I would expect there is a skeleton caretaker crew, however their care taking may consist of taking one of the ships assigned small boats out of its berth at the station, confirming the ship is still where it is supposed to be and fixing obvious faults, once every few months or so.

Pretty much something like that yeah.

If they do a rolling schedule where they go inside each ship for a basic check/minor repairs if needed, every 3-6 months and do a more thorough check ever 2-5 years, that will be enough for a long time.

Anything that deteriorates quickly ( someone mentioned rubber gaskets, something that would never be left onboard a mothballed ship, as removing all that stuff is basically the whole point ) will have been removed on mothballing, so it´s only really the unexpected stuff that these crews will need to go over.

Yes, there are probably a large number (millions) of retired SLN officers and enlisted with less than 5 years since they seperated from the Navy. On the other hand, you will have to find them even if they retired and are drawing a pension. They may or may not be in a system in the Core which is the only place you will be sure to be able to get to them if you 1) send a letter and 2) ORDER them to report to X location and they then -theoreticaly - become accessable to be placed in a location/duty where they can be usefull or have updated training.

Then there are those who may have retired (or just didn't reenlist) and are out in the Shell or Verge and will be -because of Lacoon I & II - unreachable by regular/reliable mail and will not be able to get to anyplace due to lack of shipping.

A major point that has been touched on is the very high number or Former RMN (either Reserve or Retired/honorably discharged) in the Manticorian Merchant Marine who have been a deep pool of people for the RMN at several points. I mention that as it is precisely that MMM which was such a MAJOR source of the shipping which had been servicing the League and much of what we have been shown as human occupied space. That potential pool of spacers has NEVER been available to the SLN and has now been withdrawn even if the SL thought they could just hire-on merchant sailors for the new logistics needs. The League and all the systems currently not engaged (or compeled to support the fighting on the League side) have lost a majority of the commercial shipping available because of the Lacoon actions. Along with the loss of the MMM, all that non-MMM shipping that was on the outward side of ANY wormholes that lead back to the League are faced with a long- often VERY long- flight through hyperspace just to get back into League controlled territory. If they were out somewhere like Silesia or by the Aldermani, they are just screwed as far as getting home and may have to look to become tramp frieighters scrounging work to survive as they can't get anywhere close to home...and they have contracts/cargo that is going to break them.

Brigade XO wrote:A major point that has been touched on is the very high number or Former RMN (either Reserve or Retired/honorably discharged) in the Manticorian Merchant Marine who have been a deep pool of people for the RMN at several points.

That is stated, but it's BS if you think about it.

IIRC, David has stated that one of the things that makes the MMM so effective is the that ships have a crew of about 20 vs like 60 for the SL. There are 10 million people in the RMN. How many tens of thousands of ships do you really think the MMM has?

You need 100,000 ships to produce a 20% deep pool. With 100,000 freighters that would give you 1.2 million stops/year.

Which is pretty absurd, as there are just not that many settled planets (like under 5000 or so iirc) and few of them need an 8 million ton freighter to call on them multiple times per year. Very few need a freighter to stop by several times per month.

So it's more like 20,000 at max, which gives you 400,000 crew vs the 10 million people in the RMN.

kzt wrote:

Brigade XO wrote:A major point that has been touched on is the very high number or Former RMN (either Reserve or Retired/honorably discharged) in the Manticorian Merchant Marine who have been a deep pool of people for the RMN at several points.

That is stated, but it's BS if you think about it.

IIRC, David has stated that one of the things that makes the MMM so effective is the that ships have a crew of about 20 vs like 60 for the SL. There are 10 million people in the RMN. How many tens of thousands of ships do you really think the MMM has?

You need 100,000 ships to produce a 20% deep pool. With 100,000 freighters that would give you 1.2 million stops/year.

Which is pretty absurd, as there are just not that many settled planets (like under 5000 or so iirc) and few of them need an 8 million ton freighter to call on them multiple times per year. Very few need a freighter to stop by several times per month.

So it's more like 20,000 at max, which gives you 400,000 crew vs the 10 million people in the RMN.

Well, yeah.

We know that Honorverse economics make no sense. The scenario you suggest wouldn't generate enough revenue to be worth collecting it, let alone be able to finance the entire bloated SL bureaucracy with enough left over for massive corruption and graft.

Earth is not, after all, Trantor.

kzt wrote:That is stated, but it's BS if you think about it.

IIRC, David has stated that one of the things that makes the MMM so effective is the that ships have a crew of about 20 vs like 60 for the SL. There are 10 million people in the RMN. How many tens of thousands of ships do you really think the MMM has?

You need 100,000 ships to produce a 20% deep pool. With 100,000 freighters that would give you 1.2 million stops/year.

Which is pretty absurd, as there are just not that many settled planets (like under 5000 or so iirc) and few of them need an 8 million ton freighter to call on them multiple times per year. Very few need a freighter to stop by several times per month.

So it's more like 20,000 at max, which gives you 400,000 crew vs the 10 million people in the RMN.

I think you gravely underestimate the level of stupidity commonly inherent in commerce and consumer demand.

First of all though, unless i misrecall, it was mentioned in the first book that Haven built those Q-ships the way they did because it resembled the most common freighters, which IIRC was around 2M ton.

Secondly, i don´t think you understand just how much tonnage is around. Earth today has between 1 and 2 BILLION tons just of maritime transportation(depending on what exactly you´re counting), spread out over 53K to 89K vessels.

Yes, the availability of near-space transportation and other effects of technology means the need for interplanetary transport goes down.

But it does not disappear completely. And it´s not the absolute NEED that you have to look at but how much the locals is willing to pay for.

You also have to remember that just because a place CAN be 100% self sufficient, almost nowhere actually IS. And even with space capable transportation added to ease matters on individual planets, you´re also going to have a vast spread of planet types, with wildly differing conditions that WILL lead to various exports and imports becoming established.

Why spend many years worth of planetary effort to build up all you need to be completely self sufficient, when you can import most things relatively cheap?

There´s a bundle of planets with populations counted in billions, and the majority of those are likely going to generate a crapload of commerce.

under 5000 or so iirc) and few of them need an 8 million ton freighter to call on them multiple times per year. Very few need a freighter to stop by several times per month.

Anything with populations above hundreds of millions will likely have a steady stream of freighters both coming and going.
I wouldn´t be the slightest surprised if there are 100+ planets that have "8 million ton freighters" arriving or departing on a daily basis.
I would probably be more surprised if there isn´t.

Tenshinai wrote:Secondly, i don´t think you understand just how much tonnage is around. Earth today has between 1 and 2 BILLION tons just of maritime transportation(depending on what exactly you´re counting), spread out over 53K to 89K vessels.

Just to reinforce this point....

The Port of Los Angeles, which is one of several major US ports, handles around 180 million tons of shipping per year (roughly 2/3 of that is inbound)

https://www.portoflosangeles.org/maritime/tonnage.asp

That for a country with a population of around 320 million.