Spoilers - Toll of Honor

penny wrote:One thing that seems to be the bull in the China shop is the almost above the law status of members of the House of Lords and Commons. It also seems to be the same with Grayson regarding the Keys. These high ranking civilian positions are instrumental to the balance of power. How can a member of either be thrown in jail for a crime when his vote is instrumental in the smooth running of the government?

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On another note. I was under the impression that a lot of people attended the duels on Manticore. I don't think any extra observers were there for Tankersley's execution.

I was also under the impression that the range of each duelist from each other would be forty meters. And that that forty meters would be written in stone. But each contestant stands back to back then takes twenty paces, turns and fires. It seems that there is an assumption of one meter per pace. However, the length of individual strides are different. Someone as tall as Honor would certainly have a longer stride.

At any rate, I assumed the forty meters would be measured beforehand.

penny wrote:One thing that seems to be the bull in the China shop is the almost above the law status of members of the House of Lords and Commons. It also seems to be the same with Grayson regarding the Keys. These high ranking civilian positions are instrumental to the balance of power. How can a member of either be thrown in jail for a crime when his vote is instrumental in the smooth running of the government?

At any rate, I assumed the forty meters would be measured beforehand.

penny wrote:One thing that seems to be the bull in the China shop is the almost above the law status of members of the House of Lords and Commons. It also seems to be the same with Grayson regarding the Keys. These high ranking civilian positions are instrumental to the balance of power. How can a member of either be thrown in jail for a crime when his vote is instrumental in the smooth running of the government?

Thank you for your email.

Under the Forfeiture Act 1870 those convicted of treason are
disqualified from sitting or voting as a member of the House of Lords.
There is no statutory disqualification in relation to any other criminal
offence.

Members of the House of Lords who, having been convicted of a criminal
offence, are given a custodial sentence, are as a matter of course
unable to attend the House or vote for the duration of their sentence.
In such circumstances the Lord Speaker informs the House at the earliest
opportunity following commencement of the sentence. The only member of
the House of Lords who is currently serving a prison sentence is Lord
Black of Crossharbour. The Lord Speaker formally informed the House of
his sentence on 4 March 2008.

tlb wrote:Here is the answer to a freedom of information request addressed to the House Of Lords Information Office, House of Lords on 16 December 2008:

Thank you for your email.

Under the Forfeiture Act 1870 those convicted of treason are
disqualified from sitting or voting as a member of the House of Lords.
There is no statutory disqualification in relation to any other criminal
offence.

Members of the House of Lords who, having been convicted of a criminal
offence, are given a custodial sentence, are as a matter of course
unable to attend the House or vote for the duration of their sentence.
In such circumstances the Lord Speaker informs the House at the earliest
opportunity following commencement of the sentence. The only member of
the House of Lords who is currently serving a prison sentence is Lord
Black of Crossharbour. The Lord Speaker formally informed the House of
his sentence on 4 March 2008.

A later revision to the law permitted expulsion for serious offenses.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:One thing that seems to be the bull in the China shop is the almost above the law status of members of the House of Lords and Commons. It also seems to be the same with Grayson regarding the Keys. These high ranking civilian positions are instrumental to the balance of power. How can a member of either be thrown in jail for a crime when his vote is instrumental in the smooth running of the government?

It's unknown whether those worthies have immunity from prosecution.

Though one advantage of a hereditary aristocracy is that there's a clear line of succession: if this person is removed, that next one becomes the vote. There's no legal reason not to prosecute a lord or a key because it would result in fewer votes active in parliament.

Politically it's another matter, of course.

At any rate, I assumed the forty meters would be measured beforehand.

Just stand where the blood stains are.

penny wrote:If I had been Young, I would have sued Honor for libel. Ultimately, what else did Young have to lose at the end of the day, except his life which was already on forfeit? I would have done to Honor in the midst of my demise as Khan did to Kirk. “From hell’s gates I spit at thee.” Or something like that.

That would have placed Honor in a very bad situation by making her have to divulge where and how she came by the evidence. Evidence that was illegally obtained. Honor would have had to throw her friends under the bus. She wouldn't have done that. Even if she had, Young would have gotten the satisfaction of hurting Honor once again. And with the North Hollow Files, he probably could have gotten a very light jail sentence, compared to what he should or would have gotten without the files.

Anyway, Young would have been protected from being challenged by Honor to a duel because of the rules which said parties in a lawsuit cannot challenge each other. And there’d have been a good chance Honor would have dropped the entire thing, being faced with going to court and having to throw her friends under the bus.

At the very least, Ramirez's career would have been over. As well as, I suspect, every other officer involved in that unscheduled, impromptu, unnecessary very risky “training mission” to Gryphon. At most.

“Oh, I’m always discreet, Milord.”

“Good.” North Hollow sipped wine moodily. “To be honest, I’d really prefer to engage your courtroom services and sue her for libel. Even if the case ultimately failed, the litigation would bar her from issuing any challenges before the Navy deploys her out of the system. But I can’t risk it.”

“Actually, and I provide this information free of any charge, Milord, suing her for libel would be a very, very bad idea.”

“Oh?” North Hollow lowered his glass.

“As you’re undoubtedly aware, my client list is extensive,” she said. “Among my many clients is the Roualeyn Corporation. They own a château in the Arduus Mountains on Gryphon. A little over a month ago, Denver Summervale was a guest there, and during his stay, a Royal Navy pinnace supporting a Marine training exercise suffered a navigation systems failure and landed not far from the château. There was . . . some unpleasantness when the embarked Marines visited the château, ostensibly to seek directions.” Her eyes met North Hollow’s very levelly across the table. “While they were there, the senior officer present—a Colonel Ramirez, I believe—had a personal conversation with Mister Summervale.”

The color drained from North Hollow’s face.
“Speaking in a purely professional sense,” she continued, “and based solely on my second- or thirdhand understanding of events, I feel confident Colonel Ramirez violated quite a few of the Star Kingdom’s laws in the course of his interview with Mister Summervale. Unfortunately, for reasons I expect you can probably understand, the Roualeyn Corporation’s management—and, frankly, Mister Summervale himself—had their own reasons for avoiding any scrutiny of his actions. One must assume, however, that the Colonel obtained whatever he’d come for, given that Mister Summervale was still alive when the Marines returned to their pinnace and departed.”

“I see.”

North Hollow’s jaw clenched again, in fresh shame, as he heard the sick awareness in his own voice. So the bitch did have proof, or at least strongly suggestive evidence. Obviously, as Doisneau had just said, it had been illegally obtained, so she couldn’t provide it to the Crown without at the very least exposing her toadies to the legal consequences their actions richly deserved. But if he sued her for libel, all her defense team had to do was to play a recording of any confession Summervale might have made. As long as she declined to file legal charges against him—or Summervale’s estate, assuming he had one, declined to file charges against her—she couldn’t be legally compelled to reveal how she’d obtained it. And, as long as analysis proved it was actually Summervale’s voice, it would offer her all the legal defense against libel she would ever need, no matter how it had come into her hands.

“You may take my word for it, Milord, that the château’s owners and their other business associates are less than happy about this entire episode,” Doisneau continued. “By the same token, they have no desire to throw bad money after good by picking an open quarrel with someone who possesses the resources—and friends—Countess Harrington can command.

penny wrote:I think the way the law works, one must reveal how one came by damning evidence. It must be ascertained that one didn't come into possession of said evidence illegally, and worse, by illegally committing a crime (i.e., murder, torture or both) that is worse than the evidence obtained. And to prove that one isn't in possession of key evidence because one was directly involved in the crime oneself, or that said evidence was not stolen, reproduced and planted. Or blackmail, or …

“Oh, I’m always discreet, Milord.”

“Good.” North Hollow sipped wine moodily. “To be honest, I’d really prefer to engage your courtroom services and sue her for libel. Even if the case ultimately failed, the litigation would bar her from issuing any challenges before the Navy deploys her out of the system. But I can’t risk it.”

“Actually, and I provide this information free of any charge, Milord, suing her for libel would be a very, very bad idea.”

“Oh?” North Hollow lowered his glass.

“As you’re undoubtedly aware, my client list is extensive,” she said. “Among my many clients is the Roualeyn Corporation. They own a château in the Arduus Mountains on Gryphon. A little over a month ago, Denver Summervale was a guest there, and during his stay, a Royal Navy pinnace supporting a Marine training exercise suffered a navigation systems failure and landed not far from the château. There was . . . some unpleasantness when the embarked Marines visited the château, ostensibly to seek directions.” Her eyes met North Hollow’s very levelly across the table. “While they were there, the senior officer present—a Colonel Ramirez, I believe—had a personal conversation with Mister Summervale.”

The color drained from North Hollow’s face.
“Speaking in a purely professional sense,” she continued, “and based solely on my second- or thirdhand understanding of events, I feel confident Colonel Ramirez violated quite a few of the Star Kingdom’s laws in the course of his interview with Mister Summervale. Unfortunately, for reasons I expect you can probably understand, the Roualeyn Corporation’s management—and, frankly, Mister Summervale himself—had their own reasons for avoiding any scrutiny of his actions. One must assume, however, that the Colonel obtained whatever he’d come for, given that Mister Summervale was still alive when the Marines returned to their pinnace and departed.”

“I see.”

North Hollow’s jaw clenched again, in fresh shame, as he heard the sick awareness in his own voice. So the bitch did have proof, or at least strongly suggestive evidence. Obviously, as Doisneau had just said, it had been illegally obtained, so she couldn’t provide it to the Crown without at the very least exposing her toadies to the legal consequences their actions richly deserved. But if he sued her for libel, all her defense team had to do was to play a recording of any confession Summervale might have made. As long as she declined to file legal charges against him—or Summervale’s estate, assuming he had one, declined to file charges against her—she couldn’t be legally compelled to reveal how she’d obtained it. And, as long as analysis proved it was actually Summervale’s voice, it would offer her all the legal defense against libel she would ever need, no matter how it had come into her hands.

“You may take my word for it, Milord, that the château’s owners and their other business associates are less than happy about this entire episode,” Doisneau continued. “By the same token, they have no desire to throw bad money after good by picking an open quarrel with someone who possesses the resources—and friends—Countess Harrington can command.

Playing the "coerced" confession, even under duress, still would have protected Honor from the charge of libel, but there would have been no protection for her friends.

Chapter 24 wrote:No prosecutor could use it against him, given the circumstances under which it had been obtained, but private citizens weren't bound by the same constraints as the legal establishment. If he or North Hollow brought charges for slander, they'd have to prove her allegations were untrue. Under those circumstances she could damned well use it in her defense, and where it came from or how it happened to be in her possession wouldn't matter. What would matter was that she had it, and those were only the legal consequences. It didn't even consider what would happen if his other employers realized he'd talked and—

penny wrote:I think the way the law works, one must reveal how one came by damning evidence. It must be ascertained that one didn't come into possession of said evidence illegally, and worse, by illegally committing a crime (i.e., murder, torture or both) that is worse than the evidence obtained. And to prove that one isn't in possession of key evidence because one was directly involved in the crime oneself, or that said evidence was not stolen, reproduced and planted. Or blackmail, or …

“Oh, I’m always discreet, Milord.”

“Good.” North Hollow sipped wine moodily. “To be honest, I’d really prefer to engage your courtroom services and sue her for libel. Even if the case ultimately failed, the litigation would bar her from issuing any challenges before the Navy deploys her out of the system. But I can’t risk it.”

“Actually, and I provide this information free of any charge, Milord, suing her for libel would be a very, very bad idea.”

“Oh?” North Hollow lowered his glass.

“As you’re undoubtedly aware, my client list is extensive,” she said. “Among my many clients is the Roualeyn Corporation. They own a château in the Arduus Mountains on Gryphon. A little over a month ago, Denver Summervale was a guest there, and during his stay, a Royal Navy pinnace supporting a Marine training exercise suffered a navigation systems failure and landed not far from the château. There was . . . some unpleasantness when the embarked Marines visited the château, ostensibly to seek directions.” Her eyes met North Hollow’s very levelly across the table. “While they were there, the senior officer present—a Colonel Ramirez, I believe—had a personal conversation with Mister Summervale.”

The color drained from North Hollow’s face.
“Speaking in a purely professional sense,” she continued, “and based solely on my second- or thirdhand understanding of events, I feel confident Colonel Ramirez violated quite a few of the Star Kingdom’s laws in the course of his interview with Mister Summervale. Unfortunately, for reasons I expect you can probably understand, the Roualeyn Corporation’s management—and, frankly, Mister Summervale himself—had their own reasons for avoiding any scrutiny of his actions. One must assume, however, that the Colonel obtained whatever he’d come for, given that Mister Summervale was still alive when the Marines returned to their pinnace and departed.”

“I see.”

North Hollow’s jaw clenched again, in fresh shame, as he heard the sick awareness in his own voice. So the bitch did have proof, or at least strongly suggestive evidence. Obviously, as Doisneau had just said, it had been illegally obtained, so she couldn’t provide it to the Crown without at the very least exposing her toadies to the legal consequences their actions richly deserved. But if he sued her for libel, all her defense team had to do was to play a recording of any confession Summervale might have made. As long as she declined to file legal charges against him—or Summervale’s estate, assuming he had one, declined to file charges against her—she couldn’t be legally compelled to reveal how she’d obtained it. And, as long as analysis proved it was actually Summervale’s voice, it would offer her all the legal defense against libel she would ever need, no matter how it had come into her hands.

“You may take my word for it, Milord, that the château’s owners and their other business associates are less than happy about this entire episode,” Doisneau continued. “By the same token, they have no desire to throw bad money after good by picking an open quarrel with someone who possesses the resources—and friends—Countess Harrington can command.

Playing the "coerced" confession, even under duress, still would have protected Honor from the charge of libel, but there would have been no protection for her friends.

tlb wrote:It is not clear that Honor can be forced to disclose how she got the recording, particularly if the burden of proof is on Pavel to show that it is untrue. From Field of Dishonor:

Chapter 24 wrote:No prosecutor could use it against him, given the circumstances under which it had been obtained, but private citizens weren't bound by the same constraints as the legal establishment. If he or North Hollow brought charges for slander, they'd have to prove her allegations were untrue. Under those circumstances she could damned well use it in her defense, and where it came from or how it happened to be in her possession wouldn't matter. What would matter was that she had it, and those were only the legal consequences. It didn't even consider what would happen if his other employers realized he'd talked and—

tlb wrote:But even if Honor has to name the source to use the recording; how can it be proved to be coerced with Denver dead? Wouldn't that require self incrimination (any way that would be for another trial)? The only thing relevant to Pavel was that Denver was asked to be truthful.

tlb wrote:I am not sure that the military people would be in much trouble, even if charges were brought over the coercion. There were no complaints filed, everything was logged and questions were only being asked of someone (now dead) who had killed multiple military personnel and planned to kill at least one more for money.