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(SPOILERS) Uncomprisingly good

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Re: (SPOILERS) Uncomprisingly good
Post by clancy688   » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:20 am

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Torlek wrote:The MA after the Yawata Strike again provides evidence that there is a third player by destroying Mycroft and SL ignores it.


Um, actually they don't. But they were in the middle of a battle when something unexpected happened. They scarcely could just call up a pause and figure out what the hell was going on.

Filing the graser fire away under "To be looked into later" and continue struck me as the prudent thing to do. And Kingsford did put some thought into this later on.

If anything, I think it's a bit too crude for the Malign. Especially the nuclear bombs in the space stations. They made it crystal clear that it wasn't the SL which had planted these things, so why would they count on them inducing and overreaction against the SL? Hm...

I can kinda accept it as a knee-jerk reaction after the Gamma Center bombing and the loss of the older Dettweiler, though. Lots of level-headed decision-makers gone and the successors emotionally compromised.

Any marginally competent Admiral could have executed that turkey shoot.


She basically demanded their unconditional surrender. You're not doing that with "any marginally competent General". That's like... some unknown three-star admiral sitting on USS Missouri in September 45 instead of MacArthur. Nah... it was the right thing to send Honor. And be worried. :)
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Re: (SPOILERS) Uncomprisingly good
Post by Torlek   » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:49 am

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clancy688 wrote:
Torlek wrote:The MA after the Yawata Strike again provides evidence that there is a third player by destroying Mycroft and SL ignores it.


Um, actually they don't. But they were in the middle of a battle when something unexpected happened. They scarcely could just call up a pause and figure out what the hell was going on.

Filing the graser fire away under "To be looked into later" and continue struck me as the prudent thing to do. And Kingsford did put some thought into this later on.

If anything, I think it's a bit too crude for the Malign. Especially the nuclear bombs in the space stations. They made it crystal clear that it wasn't the SL which had planted these things, so why would they count on them inducing and overreaction against the SL? Hm...

I can kinda accept it as a knee-jerk reaction after the Gamma Center bombing and the loss of the older Dettweiler, though. Lots of level-headed decision-makers gone and the successors emotionally compromised.



Fair enough. Kingsfort toke the very last exit ramp of the nothing to see here highway. Kinda hard not to if you have people dropping dead in your office. Still ignoring the Yawata Strike in all previous discussion of paranoid Manty conspiracy phantasies was stupid.


Any marginally competent Admiral could have executed that turkey shoot.


She basically demanded their unconditional surrender. You're not doing that with "any marginally competent General". That's like... some unknown three-star admiral sitting on USS Missouri in September 45 instead of MacArthur. Nah... it was the right thing to send Honor. And be worried. :)


That MacArthur was in Tokyo was important for the Americans, not the Japanese. I find it hard to imagine that the Japanese would have decided to not surrender because the General they surrendered to was of an insufficient statue.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Uncomprisingly good
Post by ldwechsler   » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:58 am

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Torlek wrote:Spoilers

clancy688 wrote:HEAVY SPOILERS FOLLOWING

My wtf moment of the novel:

The Harrington-genome is actually a Mesan-Alignment Alpha-line gone AWOL. :shock: :o


If I've got *any* grievances with the book, it's that I feel like RFC's has cheated a bit on his "I write military SciFi, and in that people die" philosophy.
:D


I would concur with that opinion. In general, the book was a bit deus ex machiny for my taste. The miraculous survival of some characters. One raid against Sol and all of a sudden reasonable people take over the SL. The accuse everybody and if you keel over dead you were guilty school of counter-intelligence.

Also not a fan of the violations the Chekov's gun principle in the last few books. I know it is a potentially unending multibook series so some dangling threads are okay but lots of story lines have been going nowhere lately. Zachariah McBryde story went nowhere. 3 of the five protectorate uprising in SoV had almost no bearing on this book, despite what we have been told here. How the whole Mayan secession storyline contributed to the story beyond reinforcing the SL fraying on the edges and various people working to prevent violence escapes me.

The Villian idiot ball continues. The MA after the Yawata Strike again provides evidence that there is a third player by destroying Mycroft and SL ignores it. Mandarins continue to believe their own propaganda. MA leadership become positively unhinged because their enemies dare to fight back.



I disagree on more than a few points. NOT cleaning everything up leads to the next arc of the story.

We don't know what will happen on Darius. Or with the "Renaissance Factor." That's coming.

As for the "more children," that is simple. Emily is dead but she will have another child. Chances are there are sperm deposits from Hamish, had he died.

Yes, it was a bit much having several characters survive. But it also provides a reason for Honor to be less of a Fury (note the connection) when she gets to Earth. Also, it might be better for the next arc if there are more kids.

As for Intelligence not picking up on the bombs and their implications, there was not much time between the bombs and the surrender. Chances are, when people look through the government records from Terra they will find a lot of dirt but nothing on these bombs and some people will begin to work things out.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Uncomprisingly good
Post by cthia   » Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:39 am

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You see? When even one of our favorite characters die, we complain.

When most of them survive, we still complain.

As readers, we just don't know what the fu——ss we want!

Poor RFC, he must be going "What do they want from me?!"


Last but not least. Emily's dead? That'll teach me about the dangers of poking my nose around in classified threads.

:::::endless sobs:::::

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: (SPOILERS) Uncomprisingly good
Post by Dauntless   » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:31 am

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overall I did very much enjoy the book. I am always sad when characters we've known for ever die, though most of the casualties were restricted to the secondary character list.

of them I think i'll miss Lucian Cortez most. he wasn't on screen very often but he left a serious impression on me.

Emily's death? well it was always said that her survival was dammned near a miracle to begin with and that even with the life support char her health was fragile (much as she loved to claim otherwise)

HMS Phantom's task force's final stand really hammers home why we loved honor and the SKM so much. that wasn't a fight over politics, it was straight up "we fight for the lives of millions of innocents" fight that is the hallmark of the RMN as shown so well by HMS Nike and Saganami.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Uncomprisingly good
Post by runsforcelery   » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:09 am

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cthia wrote:You see? When even one of our favorite characters die, we complain.

When most of them survive, we still complain.

As readers, we just don't know what the fu——ss we want!

Poor RFC, he must be going "What do they want from me?!"


Last but not least. Emily's dead? That'll teach me about poking my nose around in classified threads.

:::::endless sobs:::::


I accepted a long time ago that there is no way to make everyone happy and that readers are going to focus on points where they are positive they could have done it better. That's human nature.

I do think that criticizing the Solarian League for not responding faster to the Silver Bullets' "proof" of the Mesan Alignment's existence is . . . ill taken, shall we say? None of the task force flagships survived, the data they had from the handful of ships which had survived were fragmentary and far from conclusive, and Kingsford was in the midst of an effort to fully analyze what information he did have when he was interrupted by Brigadier Gaddis and proof that the "Other Guys" existed, at which point he had bigger fish to fry than analyzing tactical data from a disastrous defeat. Until he and the competent intelligence analysts had time to "fumigate" his staff and senior officers, he had no intention of pinning a big target to his chest and saying "oh, shoot me now!" to people who had amply demonstrated their willingness to shoot everyone in sight. :roll: Was he prepared to say "Oh, I see the Manties were right! It must be those nasty Mesans (who the noble Manticorans recently finished nuking in an Eridani Edict violation all their own)!" No, he wasn't. He wouldn't have signed off on that as a given even after he was in a position to turn the honest Assistant Attorney General loose on them. That someone was manipulating the situation clearly was a given; he just wasn't absolutely convinced it was the Mesans any more than Daud & Company were. And he had no information at all on the bombs the Detweiler boys had planted aboard the Beowulfan orbital habitats, so that was a total nonfactor in his thinking.

He really didn't have a whole bunch of time between the return of the remnants of Capriotti's attack force and the arrival of the Salamander, either, so expecting him to sew everything up before she got there strikes me as more than a little unreasonable. And if he was still in the process of figuring out what had happened in the battle, it's definitely unreasonable to blame the Mandarins for having figured out even less.

And as for the Detweilers' decision to kill the platforms, I never said (a) that it was a smart thing to do or (b) that Albrecht and Evelina's sons were reacting logically. I will say that Benjamin and the boys figured that there was already ample evidence out there that a third-party was involved. The Alignment's master plan has always depended on the ability of public opinion to ignore anything that doesn't fit its own preconceptions.

At the same time, the Alignment has always known that they couldn't manipulate star nations of the scale their endgame contemplated without leaving fingerprints. What they counted on was pushing the war they had created to a conclusion before those fingerprints became sufficiently obvious for someone as self-serving as the Mandarins to acknowledge. The Detweilers always figured that post-breakup, the League's surviving core worlds' intelligence services would figure out that the Manties had been telling the truth at least about the existence of a third-party's involvement. They'd even accepted that those intelligence services would probably agree with Manticore that the manipulation had come out of Mesa. They had, however, anticipated disappearing so utterly down Houdini's rabbit hole that it wouldn't matter. You can't hunt a wisp of smoke on a windy day, and they planned to leave the galaxy with a very "windy day" in the aftermath of the mutual destruction of the League and the Star Kingdom of Manticore. "If you can't find us, we might as well not exist, because you'll go away and start focusing on the things you can find. Especially if we are operating only through the façade/cutout of the Renaissance Factor."

It's easy for the reader, who's seen this entire situation playing out from the inside of all the participants, to overestimate how easy it is to overcome the sheer inertia of "everybody knows" sufficiently to consider evidence that radically upends every intelligence and military strategic assumption of something the size of the Solarian League. The fact that al-Fanudahi, Irene Teague, and the other members of their team were prepared to do that is actually far more surprising than that the rest of the League's analysts weren't. For that matter, al-Fanudahi had the advantage that he'd had his eyes opened years before and he was still in the dark on several critical aspects because he didn't have the omniscient narrator perspective and he did have an enormously vast ocean in which to seine for tadpoles.

As far as "cheesy" moments are concerned, I'm fine with it. :P

At Hypatia, I killed a lot more named characters than I spared, and in my admittedly somewhat prejudiced opinion the survival of the admiral and Captain Peterson's fiancé was adequately explained in that both Cinqueda and Phantom, although very badly damaged, survived the initial missile exchange long enough for their life pods to launch. Did I choose to let them survive? Yes, in one sense. I rolled dice, and they made their saving throws. Literally. Admiral Koutic just barely made it, and I will admit that I padded the percentages slightly in their cases, but aside from points at which I have determined going in that the story requires that what I classify as "a major character" has to die, I generally determine whether or not they survive by rolling dice. The fact that I don't know whether or not a given character is going to survive actually makes it more challenging to write the story and I think it reflects the sheer randomness of war's carnage.

As far as Hamish and Jacques are concerned, sue me. :P :P

After twenty-five years of writing this series, I have earned the right to give Honor at least a little of a happy ending. I've killed her friends, her subordinates, most of the rest of her family, and — in my humble opinion — adequately emphasized the price she's paid and the horrors war can inflict. So I didn't roll dice for Hamish or Jacques because I'd determined that the story I intended to write required that they survive. And I didn't tell the reader that they had survived because I didn't want the reader to know before Honor did. In my opinion, as the storyteller, readers would have been unable to fully absorb and empathize the way in which she responds, the grief she feels, if they already knew that Hamish and Jacques had actually survived. I may be wrong about that, and possibly at least some of you would have fully empathized with her even knowing they were actually still alive, but that was a judgment call which I made and by which I stand.

(And I did signal the possibility that they had. If any of you failed to realize the reason I'd kept Hamish and Jacques isolated — very widely isolated — from the rest of the Conference at that particular moment, you should all turn in your Perceptive Readers badges. Personally, I thought that should have been a significant tipoff to the reader that Hamish and Jacques were probably still alive, so I didn't see any point in a separate chapter/scene that would have suggested the same thing more explicitly. Especially since I wanted you bleeding with Honor as she dealt with the pain.)

As for sending a dispatch boat after Honor instead of Cromarty, that may be a reasonable criticism. The internal logic for using Cromarty was that a dispatch boat could not have shaved any more time off the transit without running exactly the same risks. Arguably, the dispatch boat would have been much more expendable than Cromarty, but it couldn't have gotten there any sooner. When Cromarty began her run from Beowulf to the Sol System, she was not under orders to run any risks in the name of speed. That was a decision her captain made after fully internalizing why Hamish was in such a tearing hurry to get there. And Hamish was underway within — literally — an hour or so of being pulled out of the wreckage. It's not like there was a whole huge amount of time for people to consider the best and most efficient way to deal with the situation. Not saying that there wasn't enough time for them to have made different decisions if they'd taken the time to think about it, but they had just a tad on their plates dealing with millions upon millions of casualties. I think they can be excused for thinking less clearly than readers munching potato chips while they read about it.

Having said all of that, I would've sent Cromarty anyway, exactly the way I did, because that was the scene I wanted. Call it cheesy if you will, but I chose to indulge myself in it for a lot of reasons, including what it showed about the characters involved. And if I was going to wrap up a story arc to which I've given a quarter century, that I was by God going to do it in a way that forced me to shift to a keyboard because my voice kept breaking up when I tried to dictate it.

I say again, sue me! :P :lol: :P


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Uncomprisingly good
Post by clancy688   » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:21 am

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runsforcelery wrote:
I say again, sue me! :P :lol: :P


Nah, is okay. Those were only minor grievances. Overall I very much enjoyed the novel. :)

Is said in another awesome SciFi universe: "It was good cheese." :D
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Re: (SPOILERS) Uncomprisingly good
Post by NervousEnergy   » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:54 am

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runsforcelery wrote:And if I was going to wrap up a story arc to which I've given a quarter century, that I was by God going to do it in a way that forced me to shift to a keyboard because my voice kept breaking up when I tried to dictate it.

I say again, sue me! :P :lol: :P

This. The dice have crapped out for Our Heroes more than enough times over the last 25 years to justify rolling a 7.

Great end scene to a great arc.

...when is the next one coming out?

(ducks and runs...)
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Re: (SPOILERS) Uncomprisingly good
Post by cthia   » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:24 pm

cthia
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Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

clancy688 wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:
I say again, sue me! :P :lol: :P


Nah, is okay. Those were only minor grievances. Overall I very much enjoyed the novel. :)

Is said in another awesome SciFi universe: "It was good cheese." :D


After twenty-five years, it was good cheese because it was aged. Might even be stinky. But the really stinky cheese sniff sniff is the best.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: (SPOILERS) Uncomprisingly good
Post by cthia   » Mon Apr 02, 2018 12:34 pm

cthia
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Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

runsforcelery wrote:
cthia wrote:You see? When even one of our favorite characters die, we complain.

When most of them survive, we still complain.

As readers, we just don't know what the fu——ss we want!

Poor RFC, he must be going "What do they want from me?!"


Last but not least. Emily's dead? That'll teach me about poking my nose around in classified threads.

:::::endless sobs:::::


I accepted a long time ago that there is no way to make everyone happy and that readers are going to focus on points where they are positive they could have done it better. That's human nature.

I do think that criticizing the Solarian League for not responding faster to the Silver Bullets' "proof" of the Mesan Alignment's existence is . . . ill taken, shall we say? None of the task force flagships survived, the data they had from the handful of ships which had survived were fragmentary and far from conclusive, and Kingsford was in the midst of an effort to fully analyze what information he did have when he was interrupted by Brigadier Gaddis and proof that the "Other Guys" existed, at which point he had bigger fish to fry than analyzing tactical data from a disastrous defeat. Until he and the competent intelligence analysts had time to "fumigate" his staff and senior officers, he had no intention of pinning a big target to his chest and saying "oh, shoot me now!" to people who had amply demonstrated their willingness to shoot everyone in sight. :roll: Was he prepared to say "Oh, I see the Manties were right! It must be those nasty Mesans (who the noble Manticorans recently finished nuking in an Eridani Edict violation all their own)!" No, he wasn't. He wouldn't have signed off on that as a given even after he was in a position to turn the honest Assistant Attorney General loose on them. That someone was manipulating the situation clearly was a given; he just wasn't absolutely convinced it was the Mesans any more than Daud & Company were. And he had no information at all on the bombs the Detweiler boys had planted aboard the Beowulfan orbital habitats, so that was a total nonfactor in his thinking.

He really didn't have a whole bunch of time between the return of the remnants of Capriotti's attack force and the arrival of the Salamander, either, so expecting him to sew everything up before she got there strikes me as more than a little unreasonable. And if he was still in the process of figuring out what had happened in the battle, it's definitely unreasonable to blame the Mandarins for having figured out even less.

And as for the Detweilers' decision to kill the platforms, I never said (a) that it was a smart thing to do or (b) that Albrecht and Evelina's sons were reacting logically. I will say that Benjamin and the boys figured that there was already ample evidence out there that a third-party was involved. The Alignment's master plan has always depended on the ability of public opinion to ignore anything that doesn't fit its own preconceptions.

At the same time, the Alignment has always known that they couldn't manipulate star nations of the scale their endgame contemplated without leaving fingerprints. What they counted on was pushing the war they had created to a conclusion before those fingerprints became sufficiently obvious for someone as self-serving as the Mandarins to acknowledge. The Detweilers always figured that post-breakup, the League's surviving core worlds' intelligence services would figure out that the Manties had been telling the truth at least about the existence of a third-party's involvement. They'd even accepted that those intelligence services would probably agree with Manticore that the manipulation had come out of Mesa. They had, however, anticipated disappearing so utterly down Houdini's rabbit hole that it wouldn't matter. You can't hunt a wisp of smoke on a windy day, and they planned to leave the galaxy with a very "windy day" in the aftermath of the mutual destruction of the League and the Star Kingdom of Manticore. "If you can't find us, we might as well not exist, because you'll go away and start focusing on the things you can find. Especially if we are operating only through the façade/cutout of the Renaissance Factor."

It's easy for the reader, who's seen this entire situation playing out from the inside of all the participants, to overestimate how easy it is to overcome the sheer inertia of "everybody knows" sufficiently to consider evidence that radically upends every intelligence and military strategic assumption of something the size of the Solarian League. The fact that al-Fanudahi, Irene Teague, and the other members of their team were prepared to do that is actually far more surprising than that the rest of the League's analysts weren't. For that matter, al-Fanudahi had the advantage that he'd had his eyes opened years before and he was still in the dark on several critical aspects because he didn't have the omniscient narrator perspective and he did have an enormously vast ocean in which to seine for tadpoles.

As far as "cheesy" moments are concerned, I'm fine with it. :P

At Hypatia, I killed a lot more named characters than I spared, and in my admittedly somewhat prejudiced opinion the survival of the admiral and Captain Peterson's fiancé was adequately explained in that both Cinqueda and Phantom, although very badly damaged, survived the initial missile exchange long enough for their life pods to launch. Did I choose to let them survive? Yes, in one sense. I rolled dice, and they made their saving throws. Literally. Admiral Koutic just barely made it, and I will admit that I padded the percentages slightly in their cases, but aside from points at which I have determined going in that the story requires that what I classify as "a major character" has to die, I generally determine whether or not they survive by rolling dice. The fact that I don't know whether or not a given character is going to survive actually makes it more challenging to write the story and I think it reflects the sheer randomness of war's carnage.

As far as Hamish and Jacques are concerned, sue me. :P :P

After twenty-five years of writing this series, I have earned the right to give Honor at least a little of a happy ending. I've killed her friends, her subordinates, most of the rest of her family, and — in my humble opinion — adequately emphasized the price she's paid and the horrors war can inflict. So I didn't roll dice for Hamish or Jacques because I'd determined that the story I intended to write required that they survive. And I didn't tell the reader that they had survived because I didn't want the reader to know before Honor did. In my opinion, as the storyteller, readers would have been unable to fully absorb and empathize the way in which she responds, the grief she feels, if they already knew that Hamish and Jacques had actually survived. I may be wrong about that, and possibly at least some of you would have fully empathized with her even knowing they were actually still alive, but that was a judgment call which I made and by which I stand.

(And I did signal the possibility that they had. If any of you failed to realize the reason I'd kept Hamish and Jacques isolated — very widely isolated — from the rest of the Conference at that particular moment, you should all turn in your Perceptive Readers badges. Personally, I thought that should have been a significant tipoff to the reader that Hamish and Jacques were probably still alive, so I didn't see any point in a separate chapter/scene that would have suggested the same thing more explicitly. Especially since I wanted you bleeding with Honor as she dealt with the pain.)

As for sending a dispatch boat after Honor instead of Cromarty, that may be a reasonable criticism. The internal logic for using Cromarty was that a dispatch boat could not have shaved any more time off the transit without running exactly the same risks. Arguably, the dispatch boat would have been much more expendable than Cromarty, but it couldn't have gotten there any sooner. When Cromarty began her run from Beowulf to the Sol System, she was not under orders to run any risks in the name of speed. That was a decision her captain made after fully internalizing why Hamish was in such a tearing hurry to get there. And Hamish was underway within — literally — an hour or so of being pulled out of the wreckage. It's not like there was a whole huge amount of time for people to consider the best and most efficient way to deal with the situation. Not saying that there wasn't enough time for them to have made different decisions if they'd taken the time to think about it, but they had just a tad on their plates dealing with millions upon millions of casualties. I think they can be excused for thinking less clearly than readers munching potato chips while they read about it.

Having said all of that, I would've sent Cromarty anyway, exactly the way I did, because that was the scene I wanted. Call it cheesy if you will, but I chose to indulge myself in it for a lot of reasons, including what it showed about the characters involved. And if I was going to wrap up a story arc to which I've given a quarter century, that I was by God going to do it in a way that forced me to shift to a keyboard because my voice kept breaking up when I tried to dictate it.

I say again, sue me! :P :lol: :P


runsforcelery wrote:After twenty-five years of writing this series, I have earned the right to give Honor at least a little of a happy ending.


You certainly have, and then some. Honor has earned it too. Heck, after what she endured during Flag in Exile should have earned her a free pass for life. I'm talkin lifetime "frequent flyer" miles, at least.

The last paragraph of your post choked me up. It's that surplus compassion my maker instilled within me. I just can't read anything with detachment. I appreciate you peeling back the curtain even for a second. I always wondered if authors are in danger of shorting out their keyboards with their own tears. I know I would be. In your shoes, I'd probably go through keyboards faster than tissue.

Thanks for that private moment. I hold it dear. And thank you very much for drowning in, and choking on, your own tears for your fans for 25 years. Thank you for sharing the human element.

THANK YOU!

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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