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Info found on Mesa

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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Nov 27, 2017 8:55 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:Also I wonder about the reaction in Manticore if its learned that Manticore was behind the Green Pines Massacre. If I remember correctly the Manticorian position is it was an unprovoked attack by Mesa. Except Oyster Bay was after Green Pines! That's not an unprovoked attack. That's a perfectly valid retaliatory strike.

If I was the Opposition I would hammer that home. The millions dead are square on the heads of the government who murdered a park full of children. If that doesn't get me the government nothing will.
Mind you the timeline on that still looks bizarre. Manticore is fairly sure they've nailed down when the MAlign ships dropped out of hyper way the hell out from the system. Given that it took them months to work their way from that point all the way into firing range within the Manticore system you're left trying to claim that this "perfectly valid retaliatory strike" was carried out by forces that somehow, presciently, were not only dispatched before the provoking event but had actually arrived in the vicinity of the Manticoran system and been working on violating it's sovereign territory prior to the Green Pines terrorist strike. (Also trying to explain why they attacked Grayson for something they were blaming Manticore and Haven for is another major stretch)

I'm not saying the Opposition couldn't make a claim on this, but it's a claim that doesn't withstand a lot of logical scrutiny. (Though, sadly, that doesn't mean it's necessarily an ineffective claim)
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by kzt   » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:08 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:So it becomes a matter of who you believe? A group of slave owning sleazoids or a naval officer who has always conducted himself with honor? It's an interesting Rorschach Test, isn't it?

Of course, the Measn's have confessions and evidence. The Manties just have lies.

Funny how this doesn't seem to likely to help convince the galaxy at large how "THIS time we are telling the truth, even though it's transparently obvious that we lied about nuking a park full of kids."
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by kzt   » Mon Nov 27, 2017 9:17 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote: Manticore is fairly sure they've nailed down when the MAlign ships dropped out of hyper way the hell out from the system.

No, they really have very little idea of the details. They have strong suspicions, but sensor ghosts are routine. They happen often enough that there are a good number of warships assigned full time to the mission of hunting them down. They really don't know which sensor ghost it was, or what the acceleration those ships had, so they really don't know how far out they dropped in or when. By process of elimination based on the vector they can determine something, but they don't really know much of anything for certain.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:15 pm

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ldwechsler wrote:
Second, O'Hanrahan is already on board a ship. Speaking to her, it would not be difficult to ask her to point out where she got her info. Yes, she can deny it all, probably will.

Umm... Manticore attacking wasn't exactly a secret. Neither were the nuclear explosions.

Jonathan_S wrote:I'm not saying the Opposition couldn't make a claim on this, but it's a claim that doesn't withstand a lot of logical scrutiny.
It doesn't withstand scrutiny IF you know all the details about the attack. But Manticore doesn't. Sure, they could point to a sensor ghost, but nothing was there.
kzt wrote:Of course, the Measn's have confessions and evidence. The Manties just have lies.
That's only if Manticore decides to go the lying route. That would be a big risk to take. If they get caught in a lie about this stuff Manticore's reputation is gone. Quite frankly, I don't think Manticore has the institutional culture to pull it off.

Also its entirely possible one or more of the terrorists Anton helped survived. I'm sure an enterprising reporter could get him or her to brag about how (s)he was with the big hero Anton.


ldwechsler wrote:
So it becomes a matter of who you believe? A group of slave owning sleazoids or a naval officer who has always conducted himself with honor? It's an interesting Rorschach Test, isn't it?
Would Anton lie about it to the public? I think he might try and defend his actions, or refuse to answer questions.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by JohnRoth   » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:27 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:Also its entirely possible one or more of the terrorists Anton helped survived. I'm sure an enterprising reporter could get him or her to brag about how (s)he was with the big hero Anton.


Oh, come on. We know that three of the members of the cell that worked with Anton and Victor survived. That was one of the major character arcs of Cauldron of Ghosts. My take on them is that they're going to keep their mouths shut. I suspect they'll be heading for Torch and vanish into the crowd.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by PalmerSperry   » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:12 pm

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kzt wrote:Who gave the known to be mentally unstable seccie a nuclear weapon (which he had removed all the security system from) and sent him out unsupervised with full control over it?


IIRC the seccies in question where not given the nuke by the terrible twosome, they stole it all by themselves. All Zilwicki did was remove the tracking device.

kzt wrote:How exactly has this responsible individual been held to account?


The responsible individual in this case being the Mesan responsible for securing the nuclear warheads at whichever site it was stolen from by the seccies?
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by kenl511   » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:20 pm

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Grant O'Hanrahan an interview and casually drop a question for her about "She thinks about this Mesan Alignment claim of the Grand Alliance is putting forward?"

A treecat would have interesting responses to that.....
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by JohnRoth   » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:29 pm

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kenl511 wrote:Grant O'Hanrahan an interview and casually drop a question for her about "She thinks about this Mesan Alignment claim of the Grand Alliance is putting forward?"

A treecat would have interesting responses to that.....


Yep. A skilled interrogator can do that kind of thing, and that's exactly what she was doing on Meyers - of course, she was getting help from her intelligence staff. Wouldn't stand up in court, probably, but they'd know what O'Hanrahan was. The big thing would be keeping her from suiciding when she realized she'd been outed.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by n7axw   » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:38 pm

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I think this discussion on who did what to whom is a bit askew... Here is how think it needs to be framed.

There is a difference between what actually happened and perception and the real difficulty is selling the teality as the perception.

First the reality is that Manticore did not know about, contribute to, or in any way involve itself in setting off nukes on Mesa. Mike Henke certainly didn't. The Alignment did that. Unfortunately 10th Fleet was in orbit along with Tourville's task force which means that the finger of suspicion points at Manticore even though they were bystanders rather than participants to the event.

Secondly, Anton Zilwicke does bear at least limited responsibility for the two bombs set off by the seccy cell with which he was associated with even though he did not sanction or agree to the Green Pines park as a target. That was done by that seccy who iirc had his aircar damaged by one of the blasts and then set off the bomb rather than be taken by police when his original mission crapped out.

However...

Anton was not working for, nor was he responsible to Manticore as an agent for his mission. His commitment at the time was to Torch and his mission was to try to establish responsibility for the attack on Queen Berry on Torch. It would also be fair to say that Anton and Victor hoped the info gathered would be useful in ending the war between Manticore and Haven.The only points of contact he had with Manticore was with Kathy M. and with Honor on her flagship. Setting off nukes wasn't on the agenda. It was only a projected intel op which if it hadn't gone off the rails would have been in-out with no one the wiser. But the primary point is that Manticore was not a sponsor of Anton's mission however much Alignment propaganda might assert otherwise. Again this latter has to do with perception rather than the reality we actually have from the textev.

Don

-
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Info found on Mesa
Post by kzt   » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:54 pm

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So accessory before, during, and after the fact to mass murder. Is that a crime in the SKM? When is the indictment?
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