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After Lacoon 2 what happens to Solarian merchant vessels

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Re: After Lacoon 2 what happens to Solarian merchant vessels
Post by cthia   » Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:06 pm

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quite possibly a cat wrote:So, I know the Solarian League Constitution is poorly written, but I doubt its poorly enough written to paralyze their military in the event someone declare war on them. I think its safe to assume they have their war power. As a WAG, the war powers don't bother officially defining war. Which gives just enough room for a lawyer to claim it requires a declaration. But again, just a WAG.

Of course, they could kick out anyone who tries to use their veto even if the constitution is that badly written, but that sort of defeats the point now doesn't it? In fact, if they tried that I think they might suddenly get more vetoes, so they can opt out of the war.

On the main topic: I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that Laocoon II wasn't an act of war. Its commerce raiding and seizing other nations' assets. Its an act of war against the Solarian League and everyone who had a wormhole stolen. The only way you could argue it isn't an act of war would be to argue it was an act of piracy.

Of course, I agree wholeheartedly with you.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: After Lacoon 2 what happens to Solarian merchant vessels
Post by pappilon   » Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:46 pm

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cthia wrote:
quite possibly a cat wrote:So, I know the Solarian League Constitution is poorly written, but I doubt its poorly enough written to paralyze their military in the event someone declare war on them. I think its safe to assume they have their war power. As a WAG, the war powers don't bother officially defining war. Which gives just enough room for a lawyer to claim it requires a declaration. But again, just a WAG.

Of course, they could kick out anyone who tries to use their veto even if the constitution is that badly written, but that sort of defeats the point now doesn't it? In fact, if they tried that I think they might suddenly get more vetoes, so they can opt out of the war.

On the main topic: I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that Laocoon II wasn't an act of war. Its commerce raiding and seizing other nations' assets. Its an act of war against the Solarian League and everyone who had a wormhole stolen. The only way you could argue it isn't an act of war would be to argue it was an act of piracy.

Of course, I agree wholeheartedly with you.


Seizing the WHJ control stations with armed marines and removing the personnel from their duty stations is definitely an act of war. Which for the RMN is irrelevant since a "State of War" already exists, and had since Crandall invaded the Spindle System.

For the record, along with Sensor records of the second Battle of Manticore, and complete records of all the correspondence on earth between their ambassador and earth's, Elizabeth sent their Declaration of War.

The Strategy is to push the collapse of the Mandarins, not to inflict harm on the citizens of The Solarian League. I don't think they will be actively attacking shipping. But,yeah orbital warehousing in systems where warships are based are fair targets. And, sigh, I suppose any ships captain old enough to demand passage through a wormhole will find himself the guest of the closest habitable planet until he can arrange passage home.
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The imagination has to be trained into foresight and empathy.
Ursula K. LeGuinn

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Re: After Lacoon 2 what happens to Solarian merchant vessels
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:10 am

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Lacoon II denied the use of the Manticor Junction and any wormhole terminus to SL flagged and SLN vessels. At that point, the merchant shipping was "just" being turned away but economicaly that was a crushing blow both to the SL and to the the merchant ships and the companies that owned them, the customers who shiped materials or who ordered the materials and a whole raft of other related companies.

The effects went outward and backward from that as anything on an SL flagged ship was facing a major delay in delivery even if they were going to continue on without using one of more SEM controlled wormhole. The effect if both Lacoon I and II on the SEM merchant marine has been addressed elcewhere.

If the GA (and RMN in particular since they are the ones who were taking those wormholes in Lacoon II) start siezing SL flagged ships as prizes, I doubt their 1st choice is going to be destroying those ships. Intern the crews, sell the cargo and ships though prize courts would be the optimal choice as it 1) removes capasity from the SL to move anything including military supplies 2) trained spacers from becomming part of the SLN 3) addes capasity to the GA transport capasity (even with all that now idle SEM merchant shipping being brought in to military and other cargo service) and 4) probably will contribute goods/materials to the war effort beyond the money raised by selling off the cargos.
Once Fillerta crossed the hyper limit into the Manticore System and triggered the formal declaration of war, all the SL flaggegd shipping became leagal targets for taking as prizes.

The decision for the GA to start active commerce raiding is a seperate one. If they do, they may need to just destroy SL freighters after having the crews abandon them to deny the ships and goods to the SL (and inflict ecomomic harm on the SL) That part or all of the cargos are owned by non-SL customers doesn't matter. It would be better to seize and use the ships & goods but military conditions will determine what is possible as options.

That at least the SEM will allow news-service DBs to use the wormholes is "sub-optimal" but calculated as part of the politican and propaganda moves. That can be denied in a case-by-case basis as needed.

Any ship which is still allowed to use the Junction and any of the Lacoon II wormholes should be searched. Some enterprizing merchant captain (non SL flagged) who wants to pick up cargo going to or from the SL from non-beligerants can still use the wormholes but SEM really needs to watch for what is moving. Acutal military or strategic materials/goods should get confiscated and, depending on what is involved, the ships with such violations of wartime rules (which we haven't seen yet for cargos) could be a) allowed to continue minus the offending material if lucky or or b) seized a prize for violations.

If SEM and ROH want to be cagey, they might seize SL flagged ships heading places under GA control, buy them into service and then deliver non-stratigic goods and materials to the listed buyers on at normal shipping rates and pick up cargo for delivery withing the GA controled areas. That might be better served by contracting SEM MM ships to transload the cargo and have the at least the chance of picking up the freight routes except for the parts that go back to SL space. Bills of Ladeing come with delivery requirements and if there are balance of payments due before release of goods to the buyers that could be seized by the GA. (need to consult a good set of maritime and interstellaer law attornies about that) but the original buyers get what they ordered but the SL end of the transactions don't get the money. That would be in intersting tool to use particularly when it was non-SL manufactured/owned goods being transhipped on SL flagged vessels.

The tricky part is keeping stratigic or tactical data aquired by civilian ships (freighters or passenger) passing through the wormholes is a concern but the GA will have to deal with the potential problems of what passing "civilian" ships can see with their sensors and the time frames of getting that information back to anybody who can acutaly use it against the GA.
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Re: After Lacoon 2 what happens to Solarian merchant vessels
Post by quite possibly a cat   » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:23 am

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pappilon wrote:
Seizing the WHJ control stations with armed marines and removing the personnel from their duty stations is definitely an act of war. Which for the RMN is irrelevant since a "State of War" already exists, and had since Crandall invaded the Spindle System.

They weren't limiting their seizures to Solly wormholes. They were hitting everyone. While some star nations might be happy just to get Frontier Fleet gone, that's still not something to take lightly. Anyone who isn't biased to Manticore is going to see it for what it is, a unprovoked attack on every Star Nation with something Manticore wanted enough.

Some people might be fine with it if it gets Frontier fleet off their back. But if Manticore ends up looking just as bad as Frontier Fleet, or even worse that Frontier Fleet? What if it looks like they nuked a surrendering planet for fun?
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Re: After Lacoon 2 what happens to Solarian merchant vessels
Post by Maldorian   » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:12 am

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I think some people haven´t saw the whole dimension of Lacoon!

They are only a few kind of cargo who beeing transported dirctly from point A to point B. That kind of cargo are bulk goods like ore or cereals.

But a very great amount of cargo is transported in container and container cargo is different. A container ship moves like a bus: It takes cargo at point 1, drives to point 2 drop cargo and take new cargo and so on. Some of the harbours maybe the final target of the cargo, but a lot of them will be picked up by other container ships with another route than the first ship.

Closing the whormholes doesn´t only increase the travel time. It blow up the whole galactic logistic.

First: Everyone has to know that the whormholes are blocked! You need month´s to get the message to everyone.

Second: You have to create new trading routes with new corgo centers.

Third: Like everyone knows, the solarians are short on transport capaticity.

Everyone in the league with a brain in his/her skull knows that and after the desaster of second Manticore everyone knows that the solarians couldn´t reopen the whormholes by force.

I still wondering, why the mandarines are still alive! There must be dozens of Interstellar CEO´s who wanted that the league has to bite into the rotten apple and solve the problem diplomatic. And if the current mandarin´s couldn´t do that, maybe the one or other new mandarin after some tragic accident´s?
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Re: After Lacoon 2 what happens to Solarian merchant vessels
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:32 am

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My impression of what was shown of taking of wormholes in Lacoon II was securing chains of wormholes giving access in the direction of SEM. Some of those were clearly allies or at least treaty partners of SEM- Junkner and Idaho specificly though we don't see anything of what changed at Idaho. Junker only derives true benefit from it's end of the wormhole because SEM "negotiated" (told OFS while holding out the terms in a battlesteel gauntlet covered with diplomatic velvet) the situation that OFS and FF might maintain a small presence in the system but not install a puppet government or a OFS Governor there.

Still, Junker is going to loose all business and fees of SL flagged ships which can't go through the wormhole.

At least one of the intermediate systems involved in that chain we saw that ended actualy in the (at least the edge of) SL was one of those "independent" systems in the grip of a guy who stays in power -if not actualy set up or just supported when he took over- by OFS and who is clearly not happy but there was little anybody else in that system got in wealth or power out of the wormhole except he and OFS and the usual coven of bloodsuckers from the League government.

At the point of Lacoon II, SEM is doing what it considers nessisary to both secure the wormhole routes and chains of access (like canals on Earth) and deny the SL and SLN those paths. Exactly what the Mandarins are screaming about the wormhole via Sigma Draconis/Beowuld being a dagger at the heart of the SL and that it MUST be secured.
The economic disruption to the owners of all the wormholes involved will, of course, be substantial. What is unlikely to happen is that SEM is also going to impose direct control on the systems involved. They are probably not going to do more than have ongoing dialoge with the government and commercial interests with said systems since they are not going to want to send any warships away from the termini in what is cleary a combat environment if/when the SLN shows up to try and drive off the RMN.
We also don't know how much interest/ownership Manticore or Manticorian companies hold in any of the various termini. Clearly Idaho's has a strong Manticore component as does Junker by contracts in the discovery. Probably few of the bridges closer to SL space have the same level of Manticorian involvement or ownership interests.

It is now war. My impression is that Manticore is attempting to leave the systems (most of them) with ownership interests of the various termini out of the conflict. After all, how many of them have a SDF that consists of much beyond LACs and perhaps a couple of light hypercapable warships (old Frigates or DDs) which are for the most part little more than customs enforcement and anti-pirate deterrents (not that they go anywhere else looking for pirates) and BF or FF has been their primary naval protections- at substantial fees for service.

I admit to bias in favor of Manticore...big smile. On the other hand, I expect that Manticore would- for whatever traffic will be able to use the wormholes- remit the correct portion of the transit fees to the local system. They will not othewise try and involve them in the war. After all, the systems can certainly claim that Manticore invested their terminus and there is nothing they can actualy do about it beyond send what are essentialy diplomatic notes or angry rants at the local RMN commander or through channels (best actual channel being that same local RMN commander) to Manticore complaining about the seizure. All mostly covering their butts against charges of complicity or alliance with Manticore in moving against the SL. They -none of them- will actualy be happy Manticore did this but some of them will see it as a better alternative to having OFS move in along with the SLN to "protect" them.
Sorting out the discussion with Manticore- post war- about some level of compensation is another matter entirely though I suspect that some sort of conversations will start very quietly now.
Just one opinion.
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Re: After Lacoon 2 what happens to Solarian merchant vessels
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Nov 08, 2017 11:34 am

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Brigade XO wrote:If the GA (and RMN in particular since they are the ones who were taking those wormholes in Lacoon II) start siezing SL flagged ships as prizes, I doubt their 1st choice is going to be destroying those ships. Intern the crews, sell the cargo and ships though prize courts would be the optimal choice as it 1) removes capasity from the SL to move anything including military supplies 2) trained spacers from becomming part of the SLN 3) addes capasity to the GA transport capasity (even with all that now idle SEM merchant shipping being brought in to military and other cargo service) and 4) probably will contribute goods/materials to the war effort beyond the money raised by selling off the cargos.
The smaller crews of more modern RMN designs works against taking significant numbers of prizes - its a much bigger hit on your manpower to detach enough people to sail the ship back to Manticore, and then get your people home again.

Sure if a SL freighter shows up at Basilisk, Lynx, or Trever's star it'd only take an hour or so to move it to the Manticore side of the junction and only a day or so if you had to sail all the way to Manticore orbit and back. But some of the further wormholes they captures, are still a week+ each way.

Though that's only a problem if they have to man prizes ad hoc from the covering forces own crews. If Manticore wanted and expected significant numbers or prizes from those wormholes it seems they'd have enough idled merchant marine crews and transport to send along a personnel transport with crews, some marines to provide boarding and security, and maybe a few naval officers to command each prize. Then you're not depleting the already small ships' crews to move a prize.
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Re: After Lacoon 2 what happens to Solarian merchant vessels
Post by cthia   » Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:48 pm

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Maldorian wrote:I think some people haven´t saw the whole dimension of Lacoon!

They are only a few kind of cargo who beeing transported dirctly from point A to point B. That kind of cargo are bulk goods like ore or cereals.

But a very great amount of cargo is transported in container and container cargo is different. A container ship moves like a bus: It takes cargo at point 1, drives to point 2 drop cargo and take new cargo and so on. Some of the harbours maybe the final target of the cargo, but a lot of them will be picked up by other container ships with another route than the first ship.

Closing the whormholes doesn´t only increase the travel time. It blow up the whole galactic logistic.

First: Everyone has to know that the whormholes are blocked! You need month´s to get the message to everyone.

Second: You have to create new trading routes with new corgo centers.

Third: Like everyone knows, the solarians are short on transport capaticity.

Everyone in the league with a brain in his/her skull knows that and after the desaster of second Manticore everyone knows that the solarians couldn´t reopen the whormholes by force.

I still wondering, why the mandarines are still alive! There must be dozens of Interstellar CEO´s who wanted that the league has to bite into the rotten apple and solve the problem diplomatic. And if the current mandarin´s couldn´t do that, maybe the one or other new mandarin after some tragic accident´s?
My bold to call attention.

That is the logic behind my post that it would be irresponsible if the RMN didn't at least check manifests. They don't know whence the Cataphracts originated or on what round-about route they traveled. And they don't know the vector of the shipping lines they traveled on. Should the RMN give the Sollies credit for being smart if they are shipping or receiving Cataphracts, or any other entity? Remember, if they were using the junctions to previously ship Cataphracts, they wouldn't have known in time to divert some shipments from the junctions which are suddenly using dog sniffers at the borders.

They really wouldn't want to be killed by Cataphracts, or any other weaponry or parts of weaponry, that passed right through their hands.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: After Lacoon 2 what happens to Solarian merchant vessels
Post by jdtinIA   » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:39 pm

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[quote="quite possibly a cat"]So, I know the Solarian League Constitution is poorly written, but I doubt its poorly enough written to paralyze their military in the event someone declare war on them. I think its safe to assume they have their war power. As a WAG, the war powers don't bother officially defining war. Which gives just enough room for a lawyer to claim it requires a declaration. But again, just a WAG.

Of course, they could kick out anyone who tries to use their veto even if the constitution is that badly written, but that sort of defeats the point now doesn't it? In fact, if they tried that I think they might suddenly get more vetoes, so they can opt out of the war.

On the main topic: I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that Laocoon II wasn't an act of war. Its commerce raiding and seizing other nations' assets. Its an act of war against the Solarian League and everyone who had a wormhole stolen. The only way you could argue it isn't an act of war would be to argue it was an act of piracy.[/

There is a clause in the Sollie constitution which allows the navy to mobilize ships and crews. IIRC it's article 7, there was a conversation between two people about how the navy was stretching the article with the deployments.
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Re: After Lacoon 2 what happens to Solarian merchant vessels
Post by jdtinIA   » Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:40 pm

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jtg452 wrote:Oh, the Lacoons are definitely acts of war.

It's just that they are acts of economic warfare rather than part of a shooting war. Lacoon I dramatically cut the number of hulls available. Lacoon II dramatically increased the travel time of much of the remaining shipments, therefore, tying up the few remaining carriers for extended periods of time.

Imagine if all the major trucking companies in the US just stopped carrying goods. That's Lacoon I.

Now imagine what it would be like if the majority of the trucks on the road weren't there AND the few remaining trucks that were on the road couldn't use the interstate system. That's Lacoon II.

Imagine that you're a trucker in LA and you have a load headed to NY or FL. You head to the nearest exit on I-5 so you can run north to get onto I-10 to head to FL or to go to Barstow to get on I-40 to start working your way north and west towards NY. When you get to the exit, you find out that you can't use the interstate at all. To deliver, you're going to have to use state and US highways that have routinely lower speed limits and go through towns- where the speed limit is even lower. That 3-4 day run for a 2 person team of drivers (a solo can legally drive coast to coast in about a week) just doubled, if you're lucky, and it will probably take longer than that.

Don't forget, the vast majority, like 80% or more, of available trucks aren't out there any more. The few that are available are now tied up for vastly increased amounts of time per load AND your entire economy is geared toward the timely delivery of goods based on what was the norm prior to the sudden reduction in carriers and major increase in delivery time. In other words, things are about to come to a screeching halt.

All that is necessary is to turn them away. That's not to say that the Manties won't take prizes. That's a good source of bonus money for the crews. The Prize Courts will sell the cargo- thereby helping the Mantie war effort- and sell the ship with the proceeds getting split up among the crew.

The merchie has only a few choices if they are just turned away. They can return to their port of origin with the cargo they just picked up, they can go to a closer, alternative port and report to the shipper and receiver or they can plot a course through hyper and settle in for a L-O-N-G trip.



The railroads are going to love this.
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