Honorverse Sensor Capability

kzt wrote:

WLBjork wrote:One thing that is still true is that any computer system is only as good as it's programming (as Tesla found out relatively recently).

In fact, I'm now wondering if maybe the lack of some analyses to run automatically is as a way of preventing laziness and accepting "computer says..." at face value.

You have had literally hundreds of years and millions of ship/years to work on this. Obvious things like fusing the passive IR scanners and ESM systems your ships all have into their long range detection and tracking displays are just not going to get missed.

Yes. But you also have the other side developing ways to fool or confuse your expert systems. One element that helped make the Battle Of Saltash so devastating was the RMN had the Intel from examining the software and hardware of the computers of SLN from the Battle of Spindal.

So would you really want to completely depend on computers telling you the right answer when you know the other side is doing everything they can to get them to tell you the wrong answer?

pnakasone wrote:So would you really want to completely depend on computers telling you the right answer when you know the other side is doing everything they can to get them to tell you the wrong answer?

You don't actually have any choice.

There isn't any way for a human to interpret the mass of data produced by the sensors directly in real-time.

Fix system detections go out for light weeks.

Gravatics are passive

There is a lack of sensor systems for wedge down missiles or ships, except up close. Even then stealth and no wedge lets a spider drive ship float passed a Manty ghost rider probe undetected.

FTL sensors only work when using a sending and receiving sensor and a signal is blocked or redirected. Like in Oyster bay the CL that detected the command to the missile pods.

Missiles would have heat and lidar and radar and radio receivers. Apollo missiles, limited FTL transceivers.

They also have probes with Radars Lidars Thermal FTL etc...

A set of probes sending radar cones and lidar cone-rays, could fill a small area with active signals. With advanced systems and ftl one could setup a 'barrier' with Honorverse tech. But to fill a system it would take lots of probes and be power intensive, still it could be done.

100 probes by 100 probes by 100 probes is 1 million probes. If each probe sends 999,999 radar / lidar rays out to each other probe, you can make a forest of probes filling an area of space with a weak detection barrier. Put all the probes into motion coordinated with each other and the area of coverage can increase and evasion decreases. But that is still a million probes.

pnakasone wrote:

Daryl wrote:I agree John. The remarkable thing is just how well it still hangs together overall now, not the few exceptions like this. I have noticed subtle changes, like in the earliest books planets risked nuclear bombardment from space, but in the later ones it switched to kinetic projectiles.

Considering how long the series has been running such problems are inevitable.

This actually still hangs together. All missiles were nuclear tipped, the laserheads used from OBS onwards are simply more evolved contact nukes. And nuclear bombardment from space (using a missile) is still a kinetic projectile, it's just whether you're expecting the attacker to be willing to essentially glass the planet, rather than simply killing all inhabitants off.

Airburst nukes would do the job just as easily, if not easier than full kinetic projectile impacts, simply because any groundside space defense cannons can intercept kinetic projectiles short of impact (see the reference to Manticore Palace intercepting debris short of hitting Landing), while airburst nukes that measure in the multi-megatons and launched by the broadside could be detonating barely into atmosphere.

Early in the series, there's only truly been 2 situations where attackers had the opportunity to be in position for bombarding planets, both of which were Second & Fourth Yeltsins. In the case of Second Yeltsin, Graysons knew it was Masada, who had mentioned they were willing to exterminate Grayson for not following their religious views, and that was pre-Grayson Skydome, so no domes protecting the individually sealed homes.

Somtaaw wrote:
Airburst nukes would do the job just as easily, if not easier than full kinetic projectile impacts, simply because any groundside space defense cannons can intercept kinetic projectiles short of impact (see the reference to Manticore Palace intercepting debris short of hitting Landing), while airburst nukes that measure in the multi-megatons and launched by the broadside could be detonating barely into atmosphere.

The debris from a frac c weapon hitting the atmosphere is just as effective as the missile striking the ground. And the warhead adds negligible energy to the damage done. You can see that in book 2and 4 there was absolutely no concern about the KE of the missile, just the warhead. It's pretty obvious that David didn't consider the KE at all.

Lord Skimper wrote:F
FTL sensors only work when using a sending and receiving sensor and a signal is blocked or redirected. Like in Oyster bay the CL that detected the command to the missile pods.

Wrong. All FTL sensors seen so far have been passive only, and there has been no mention in the series that it is possible to redirect a gravitic signal (It is possible to block one by hiding it behind a stronger source, but that is a rare occurrence and is basically useless in scenarios with more than 3 ships).

100 probes by 100 probes by 100 probes is 1 million probes. If each probe sends 999,999 radar / lidar rays out to each other probe, you can make a forest of probes filling an area of space with a weak detection barrier. Put all the probes into motion coordinated with each other and the area of coverage can increase and evasion decreases. But that is still a million probes.

Still obsessed with that idea, are you? Have you also done the math to figure out what the maximum separation between your drones is in order to have a sensor grid that can detect something as tiny as a Superdreadnought, and what that in turn means for the viability of this "plan" of yours?

kzt wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:
Airburst nukes would do the job just as easily, if not easier than full kinetic projectile impacts, simply because any groundside space defense cannons can intercept kinetic projectiles short of impact (see the reference to Manticore Palace intercepting debris short of hitting Landing), while airburst nukes that measure in the multi-megatons and launched by the broadside could be detonating barely into atmosphere.

The debris from a frac c weapon hitting the atmosphere is just as effective as the missile striking the ground. And the warhead adds negligible energy to the damage done. You can see that in book 2and 4 there was absolutely no concern about the KE of the missile, just the warhead. It's pretty obvious that David didn't consider the KE at all.

I was going to say that the terminal velocity of a pre-war SDM wasn't that high and the kinetic energy couldn't be that devastating. Then I uses an online relativistic kintic energy calculator and threw in the 0.25c terminal velocity at 100 tons rest mass. Eek!
I get ~75 gigatons of impact energy!!!
(When the biggest nuke humans have detonated to date was a mere 50ish metatons (Tsar bomba) -- or roughly 1/1500th the power of a runaway missile.


Now a Masadan built cruiser, throwing Masada built missiles should be a bit less -- I'm pretty sure I remember them being lower performance than the RMN or Peep missiles. But not enough less to matter if one slamming into a planet. (And of course this ignores any velocity imparted from the launching ship's velocity)

kzt wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:
Airburst nukes would do the job just as easily, if not easier than full kinetic projectile impacts, simply because any groundside space defense cannons can intercept kinetic projectiles short of impact (see the reference to Manticore Palace intercepting debris short of hitting Landing), while airburst nukes that measure in the multi-megatons and launched by the broadside could be detonating barely into atmosphere.

The debris from a frac c weapon hitting the atmosphere is just as effective as the missile striking the ground. And the warhead adds negligible energy to the damage done. You can see that in book 2and 4 there was absolutely no concern about the KE of the missile, just the warhead. It's pretty obvious that David didn't consider the KE at all.

Frac C missiles sure, but a standard missile launched from a ship in orbit, example would be the orbital strikes Gendarmerie Brigadier Yucal ordered on Mobius, those kinetic strikes should be more than easily stopped by standard planetary defense systems, as the Manticore Yawata Strike showed Hephaestus debris was destroyed by the Palace defenses prior to Landing being wiped out.

I'm not entirely certain, but from a purely orbital perspective, trying to pick off a missile entering atmosphere that's intending to airburst, rather than physically hit the surface is definitely going to be much harder. And certainly less time consuming than going considerably beyond the hyperlimit, simply so you can get a ship upto speed simply to launch a c-frac strike.

In either case, airburst or c-frac, the planet is getting wiped out, but in the airburst case you pretty much guarantee nobody is going to be living there for decades, if not centuries. Which was also the plan behind Mesa's StateSec mercenaries nuking Torch into oblivion.

You'll have to tell me about when they evacuated Hiroshima.

kzt wrote:You'll have to tell me about when they evacuated Hiroshima.

your sarcasm is duly noted, but considering the differences in missile size for the standard orbital strike dart (Manticoran versions get 6 out of a single CM tube), versus a 100t nuclear tipped shipkiller missile launched by the dozen by cruisers.


I'm unsure if Hiroshima even had defense batteries, let alone if the bomber delivering the payload was flying higher than any defense guns could reach. If there were defenses, and the bomber delivering was out of range, that sort of actually helps my point that a ship up in orbit using airburst nukes has it far easier than trying to get physical contact with its target.

That's also excluding the relatively minor issue that in the days of the Hiroshima nuking, we kinda didn't have radar guided CWIS guns. Airburst flak guns that were pretty much aimed by eye were the air defense weapon of choice, and I'd pay good money to see you use one of those old WWII flak guns and pick off individual bombs on a reliable basis.