Shadow of Victory Snippet #3

SCC wrote:

kzt wrote: So he's a powerless figurehead.

*Looks at what he's planning.* Yeah, I don't think so.

You don't need to plan an armed revolt to remove a totalitarian government if you are the president and are not a powerless figurehead.

SCC wrote:Am I getting things wrong or is the system president plotting to over throw his own government?

You're getting them wrong.

The guy planning to overthrow the corrupt government is a direct descendent (and namesake) of the FIRST system president. He was also a member of the reform movement which was captured by the system. And his "cover" – to protect him from his fellow oligarchs – is that he, too, has been "captured by the system ," which is not, in fact, the case.

SCC wrote:Am I getting things wrong or is the system president plotting to over throw his own government?

I think you're getting the players wrong.
"Szymon Ziomkowski might get to claim the title of Przewodniczący Partii and play with all the pretty toys of office,"
Tomasz Szponder is rich and influential, and the descendant of "Prezydent Tomasz Szponder", but not formally part of the government.

[Edit: "Oh, bother" indeed!]

Rob the Fiend wrote:Why is it that all dictatorships security police is dressed in black? At least one part of their uniform that is.

Confuse the enemy; wear pink, purple and lavender instead.

It might interest you to know that the Waffenfarbe for the Panzer Forces in the German Army in WW2 was rose pink.

Rob the Fiend wrote:Why is it that all dictatorships security police is dressed in black? At least one part of their uniform that is.

Confuse the enemy; wear pink, purple and lavender instead.

It has been tried. The Syrian elite police forces and commandos (I think) used pink camo.

http://camopedia.org/index.php?title=Syria

Holy hell.

A hundred-plus kids dead and the whole thing being swept under the rug like it's unimportant? Something like this was what gave birth to the Havenite Aprilists - the "April Tribunal". (quick reminder, the April massacre was an incident where the regime turned a bunch of street protesters into minced meat, and then proceeded to treat the whole thing as unimportant)

Polish, huh? From what I've read, the whole thing sounds like the October Revolution, and we all know where that ended up - the head honcho revolutionaries became the new oligarchs.

This guy Tomasz Szponder sounds like the last believer alive. Now THAT is a helluva achievement (staying alive, that is).

EDIT: In retrospect it should be obvious to me - but of course the snippet is taken from raw text, devoid of translator input, with placeholder names. All of the following will be (or already is) of course corrected in final form. That whole post was simply the case of me jumping the line. And I happen to know that the usual Polish translator for Mr Webers' books is top-notch professional who also translated Tolkien an Dick.

May I propose (again) small corrrections?
1) "Hotel Wladymir Ziomkowski" has wrong declesion and the name sounds Russian, so maybe "Hotel Wladysława (Polish name) or Władymira (Russian) Ziomkowskiego" (-ego is genitive case and shows posession)? Problem is that hotels are rarely named after people in Poland so every version sound a little off. But it works with the plot this time.
2) adding "the" before Polish nouns sounds off for me
3) "Przewodniczący" has almost-synonym in "Prezes", and "Prezes" sounds slightly better
4) "Organizacja do Ochrony Przewodniczący" - again lacks genitive case so "Organizacja Ochrony Przewodniczącego" is correct or maybe "Biuro Ochrony Prezesa" (The office for protection of The Chairmann) would be better, sounds slightly funny and is based on already existing "Biuro Ochrony Rządu" which is real-live Secret Service equivalent
5) "Oligarchia" is used in Poland almost exclusively to describe Russian upper class, we have "Grupa Trzymająca Władzę" (The Group that hold the Power) which is used to talk about hidden wealthy people ruling from shadows. Acronym is often used - GTW. It might be too niche for book, but extra cool when used.
6) "Myśliwi trufla" is slightly wrong, it suggest that they are ruled by trufle - "myśliwi trufli" is better, but you should substitute "łowcy" for "myśliwi" so "łowcy trufli" is way better
7) "Szpital Marja Urbańska" - if you have to name institution after someone you should use "im." (abbrevioation of "imienia" = "in the name") so "Szpital im. Marii Urbańskiej" (again declasion). "Maria" is common name, but "Marja" is simply a typo. There is also "Maryja" but it means "Saint Mary" - so avoid "j".
8) "Lądowanie Gazety" has funny meaning and it is "The Landing of the Newspaper" so you should correct this. Problem is that "Lądowanie" doesn't sound like a name of the place/city. The translator for "On Basilisk Station" avoided this one and didn't translate "Landing" at all - so maybe "Gazeta Landing" and "Kurier Landing"? Names of the newspaper in Polish usually go with simple adjective - "Gazeta Wyborcza", "Kurier Poranny" or adjective created out of a name - "Gazeta Wrocławska". If you have to - "Gazeta Lądowania" and "Kurier Lądowania".
9) "Zielone Wzgórza Wydawcy" - means "Green Hills of the editor", like one person owned some hills. Wydawnictwo „Zielone Wzgórza" (maybe with quotation marks, and in Poland we use lower first, then upper, not the same as in English - U+201E
U+201D)
10) Pwalikowski is not a name - it' unpronuncable and probably a typo - "Pawlikowski" is very common
11) "Pokriefke" is German-English something, sounds funny
12) "no one glared at Krzywicka if they knew what was good for them. Not even the Ministrem dla Bezpieczeństwa i Prawdy." - "Ministrem" is wrong declesion. I am with Minister" is "jestem z Ministrem" but this time it should be "Minister", simple Nominative form
13) "Pierwszy Aparatczyk" - nobody would ever named himself that because it has clear negative connotations but it's your decision of course
14) "Sekretariat tego Partii" is simply wrong. Maybe "without the approval of Sekretariatu partii"? "tego" (meaning "this" for masculine nouns) shouldn't be used there at all.
15) "Owoce Morza Stowarzyszenie Eksporterów" - never in this order. "Stowarzyszenie Eksporterów Owoców Morza" is perfectly ok and with proper declesion "Owoców" = "of Fruits"
16) "Karny Oddział Dochodzenie" has messed up meaning on many levels. "Karny" may have meaning "of Prison" in some context. "Oddział" may mean "Military Unit" "Wydział Dochodzeniowo-Śledczy" is the proper name. "Dochodzeniówka" is colloquial term, often used.
17) "7707 Bulwar Heinlein" - "Bulwar Heinleina 707" or "Aleje Heinleina 707" as Alley is used more often, Please consider changing to "Aleje Stanisława Lema 707" - his works were extremely good.
18) "Mikolaj Mikołaj Kopernik Uniwersytet" - no brainer, "Uniwersytet Mikołaja Kopernika" (UMK) already exists. Or maybe "Uniwersytet Marii Curie-Skłodowskiej"?
19) "Partia Kancelarii" - wrong order, shoud be "Kancelaria Partii"
20) "Prowizja dla Wolności i Sprawiedliwości Społecznej" - autotranslator again, Commision is Prowizja only in the meaning of a "small fee". "Komisja Wolności i Sprawiedliwości Społecznej" is fine.
21) "Ruch Odnowy Narodowy" - there are "Ruch Narodowy" and "Ruch Odnowy" but to use both of them second one should be made into adjective. "Ruch Odnowy Narodowej"
22) "Krucjata Wolonści Myśli" - typo, "Wolności"

Sorry for butting in. I gather that you have someone from Poland (usual translator) doing corrections and that the final copy would be perfectly fine. Still, I couldn't contain myself. Sorry again and thanks for your books.

radagast13 wrote:May I propose (again) small corrrections?
..snip..
Sorry for butting in. I gather that you have someone from Poland (usual translator) doing corrections and that the final copy would be perfectly fine. Still, I couldn't contain myself. Sorry again and thanks for your books.

I know how annoying it is to see someone trying to use names/descriptions from your native language and get it mixed up.

Which leads me to the question on how much of the errors do you think can be from language drift during the 2 millennia that has passed from present day Polish?

"Oligarchia" for example, can it be that the connotation of the word changed to encompass any type of oligarchy?

Which leads me to the question on how much of the errors do you think can be from language drift during the 2 millennia that has passed from present day Polish?

"Oligarchia" for example, can it be that the connotation of the word changed to encompass any type of oligarchy?

Of course that it can change and those words are closely related already. Semantic shift that minuscule can occur in one generation. Or in 5 years. But in the case of RFC's books the answer depends on your personal suspension of belief.

If the English used through the books is unchanged then one can assume that other languages are fossified too. And from linguistic point of view English is evolving extremely fast, borrowing heavily from Latin, French, Italian on top of its germanic roots, which already borrowed from unknown nostratic languages. As a rule of thumb - if word is short and has "th" sound in it it is original, everything else is borrowing, like 80 % of the language. Less in common speech, more in specialized language. English changed its spelling, flexion, vocabulary many times through history - in fact you have 3 different Englishes - Old, Middle and Modern that you would have to learn separatedly. You boys used to have declesion and coniugation not that far ago. Polish, in contrast, is one of the most stable languages in the whole world. It evolved slowly but surely, that's why its grammar is so complicated. The whole slavic branch of Indoeuropean languages traces almost directly to Proto-Indo-European and many word roots are similar - after five millenia. Like 5000 years. The only major change is that we have lexicalized grammatical aspect using prefixes. We still have traces of "dual number" (that was present in PIE) that are more numerous that Latin ever had. So every language drift that Polish (and slavic languages in general) experiences should be 20 times as fast in the case of English.

Yet I'm not bothered by this at all - it is all in RFC's hands. If he wants to introduce language drift for Polish - no problem. The obvious place for the language change should be Grayson, though - weren't they in almost total isolation and without technology? Still - it is a work of fiction and there should be some leeway for author. Of course any linguist would tell you that there are exactly 0.01% possibility that you would understand English spoken 2000 years in the future - but Star Trek is not troubled by this, why Honorverse should be?

Hi and thanks for snippets and books. however seeing Polish names used in these snippets made my head hurt. Especially in this snippet, as the number of such words here is huge, thus I decided to respond here.

My personal preference would be to cut out 50% of Polish names and use their English translations only as they are tiring me, a native Polish speaker, to no end but I accept your's choice and I hope that they sound better for people who do not understand them.



Hotel Wladimir Ziomkowski. He remembered when it

as I have seen usage of Polish letters in previous and this snippet I will say it should be spelled Władimir,
and that Władimir is Russian name. Polish equivalent is Włodzimierz (exactly the same meaning).

“Has Ludwiká officially signed off on the report?”

Ludwika, last "a" without apostrophe


Pwalikowski — will issue the final approval on it. Or

unless he has excotic name, it should be Pawlikowski


whatever they call it in the military. In fact, I suppose there’s something official in the military chain of command about that. Not really my area, I’m afraid.”

understand the ruthenian pierogi is supposed to be

if we are to use Polish name for cusine, it should be "pierogi ruskie", unless pierogi is commonly understood loan word



Organizacja do Ochrony Przewodniczący, the

and here my head hurts, "over"correctly it would be Organizacja do Ochrony Przewodniczącego, but it is correct description of function, nobody would use such name for organization
Organizacja Ochrony Przewodniczacego is not so overcorrect, but I the word Organizacja does not fit here at all (it sounds like some voluntary or underground group). Better one would be Biuro Ochrony Przewodniczącego or simply Ochrona Przewodniczącego, depending on their status and how official, sinister etc. they are supposed to be.

Justyná Pokriefke, who headed that bureau. Responsibilities

again, no apostrophe at the end

of the newly organized Ruch Odnowy Narodowy. Back

Rcuh Odnowy Narodowej

Szponder, but at least he wasn’t one of the myśliwi trufla, the “truffle hunters.” It was a nickname

That Polish insertion reads completely wrong and I would axe it.
If it had correct declination (myśliwym trufla)and was not preceded by "the" it might sound better in Polish, but would not be correct in English.


opportunities came the way of the Trzystu, the Three

IMO unnecessary, but otherwise correct

elite like a grzmot ryby into water. And, yes, he

correct order would be ryby grzmot, but IMO plural form is incorrect, in Polish proverbs one usually uses singular form, so "like a ryba grzmot"

charities, like his work with the Sióstr Ubogich,

Siostry Ubogie (Sióstr is completely incorrect declination, correct one, but in fact overcorrect would be "Siostrami Ubogimi")

staff the Szpital Marja Urbańska in downtown
Lądowanie. The hospital’s campuses were located in the

Marja is old form of name Maria, which was abandoned by grammatical reform before or just after WW2.
Correct nominative case of hospitals name would be "Szpital Marii Urbańskiej" or "Szpital imienia Marii Urbańskiej", that nominative case could (in Polish would) be inflected.


He was also the owner of the Lądowanie Gazety i

Gazeta Lądowania would be probably the best

Kurier, the capital city’s most widely followed

usually it is Kurier of sth, but shortened form might have evolved


And then there was Zielone Wzgórza Wydawcy.

Of course his company could be named whatever, but if we want to use some commonly form of Publishing House name it should be "Wydawnictwo Zielone Wzgórza"


happy with Pwalikowski’s report.” Justyná Pokriefke’s tone

Pwalikowski second time, so maybe it is his name, but it does not sound good or natural.


them. Not even the Ministrem dla Bezpieczeństwa i Prawdy. The BBP was the most feared institution on

Minister Bezpieczeństwa i Prawdy, dla means for and is not used in this context in correct language, it sounds a little like Russian

Sekretariat tego Partii. The diminutive Krzywicka

There is some typo in the second word (tego) which causes that whole title does not have sense.

head of the Owoce Morza Stowarzyszenie Eksporterów,

Stowarzyszenie Exporterów Owoców Morza - changed order changes sense of given name

And Wiktoryá Lewandoska, the head of Mazur’s

modern form is Wiktoria, and Wiktorya might have been correct before WW2, and never apostrophe

Strenk’s Karny Oddział Dochodzenie, the Criminal

Oddział Dochodzeń Karnych is correct ordering, but in fact the whole name should Wydział Dochodzeń Karnych


7707 Bulwar Heinlein. Its old-fashioned springs

Bulwar Heinlein'a if we stick to Polish rules, or Heinlein's Bulwar


first Prezyden t of the Republika Włocławek. As a former professor of Wloclawekan History at Mikolaj
Mikołaj Kopernik Uniwersytet he had rather more respect

correct ordering: Uniwersytet Mikołaja Kopernika, Mikołaj seem to be typed twice

when I see word Włocławekan my brain explodes, making it Włocławek's History would be an improvement from my point of view


Petronelá.

no apostrophe




and Bjørn while I was at the Partia Kancelarii, too.

Kancelaria Parii


Bjørn Kudzinowski headed the Prowizja dla Wolności i Sprawiedliwości Społecznej, the Commission for Freedom

Prowizja it is cut taken e.g. by bank, it should be e.g. Komisja ds. Wolności i Sprawiedliwości Społecznej /9if it were parliamentary commision) or maybe better Komisja Wolności i Sprawiedliwości Społecznej, depending on their status and position is political system.


inquiry’s being conducted by the Inspektorat sił Zbrojnych. That’s Brigadier Pwalikowski’s shop, and

Sił - capital S



the man who’d created the Ruch Odnowy Narodowy had

Ruch Odnowy Narodowej


building the Krucjata Wolonści Myśli, the Free

typo: Wolności


be a party to that, Jaroslav, but I hadn’t expected this

Jaroslav is Russian name, Polish spelling is Jarosław




and from post #4:
Prezent do Praksedy — “Praksedy’s Gift,” - should be "Prezent Praksedy"; overcorrect one is "Prezent od Praksedy", but nobody would use such name, English translation is most probably incorrect as well, since the nominative case of (not really common) name is Prakseda, so prakseda's gift


OMG it took me so long to write it that I got logged out.
Generally, no offense, but that Polish sound like coming from person who emigrated abroad and did not use it last 30 years or so.