Grand Alliance Fleets

I'm thinking about the original premise --of numbering Grand Alliance fleets; is there some need for more than one?

In other words, Grand Fleet is the new Alliance's version of the 1st War's Eighth Fleet--a joint command. But given the size of that Fleet (the equivalent of 3 separate Fleets from Haven, Manticore, Grayson), I suspect that local forces belonging to discreet national fleets will rule the defense, and the Grand Fleet will take care of the offense.

I foreee in my crystal mudball, Havenite SDPs with Ghost Rider-equipped recon elements for the medium-tough, Apollo attacks for the really-tough, and LAC-led attacks for the really-easy targets. But all you will really need are task groups, I think. Ghost Rider-fed Agammenon or even Avalon feeding the fleet CICs with target data ought to really give the SLN ulcers.

I also foresee MWW singing "Tum - Te- Tum -Tum", and laughing hysterically at all of us as he does something altogether different.



Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I'm thinking about the original premise --of numbering Grand Alliance fleets; is there some need for more than one?

In other words, Grand Fleet is the new Alliance's version of the 1st War's Eighth Fleet--a joint command. But given the size of that Fleet (the equivalent of 3 separate Fleets from Haven, Manticore, Grayson), I suspect that local forces belonging to discreet national fleets will rule the defense, and the Grand Fleet will take care of the offense.

I foreee in my crystal mudball, Havenite SDPs with Ghost Rider-equipped recon elements for the medium-tough, Apollo attacks for the really-tough, and LAC-led attacks for the really-easy targets. But all you will really need are task groups, I think. Ghost Rider-fed Agammenon or even Avalon feeding the fleet CICs with target data ought to really give the SLN ulcers.

Even Havenite cruisers and destroyers will have missiles with some range advantage over Frontier Fleet units. Combine a few of those with one of just about any RMN unit with Ghost Rider recon drones and you can punch out modest FF detachments. Then fly away and repeat as necessary.

When you can spare anything larger, or RMN/GSN subwallers instead of RHN ones, you can hunt bigger game. And before long, the RHN units are likely to have Ghost Rider recon drones too for the recon duty and one-way FTL missile profile refinement.

JeffEngel wrote:Even Havenite cruisers and destroyers will have missiles with some range advantage over Frontier Fleet units. Combine a few of those with one of just about any RMN unit with Ghost Rider recon drones and you can punch out modest FF detachments. Then fly away and repeat as necessary.

When you can spare anything larger, or RMN/GSN subwallers instead of RHN ones, you can hunt bigger game. And before long, the RHN units are likely to have Ghost Rider recon drones too for the recon duty and one-way FTL missile profile refinement.

Hello,

I think it will take a few years for Haven to get to Ghost Rider's microfusion plants, or Manti-style apollos. Which is why those will be built in Beowulf. But they are very likely already able to build Erewhon-style Mk-17e, and with help maybe the latest generation of the mk-36 and mk-14 with the E-version mod to grav lensing. That still rather drastically outranges and outguns Sollie light ships (especially since you need at least a heavy cruiser for the Sollie Cataphract).

But before the Havenite tech base gets all the way caught up, Manticore ought to have a large part of its industrial output (and some shipyards) back. Given the assistance and disaster relief they got from Beowulf, they may already have some small missile manufacture ongoing-- it has already been 8 months as of the end of CoG, and Trevor's Star wasn't destroyed, so the space available needed to be re-purposed, not built from scratch.

The current leadership of the SLN will likely be completely gone by the time Haven is getting caught up, either by Kingsford pruning the deadwood or by being scapegoated by Abruzzi for not being able to suddenly catch Manti missiles in their teeth. Audrey O'Hanrahan ought to be useful in identifying the true losers to the general Sollie public, so maybe al-Fahnudafi will finally get a promotion?

just before the Malign sends Bardasano's replacement/clone out to murder him.

Your mixed task groups will destroy the SLN before two years are up.

Regards,

Rob

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Even Havenite cruisers and destroyers will have missiles with some range advantage over Frontier Fleet units. Combine a few of those with one of just about any RMN unit with Ghost Rider recon drones and you can punch out modest FF detachments. Then fly away and repeat as necessary.

When you can spare anything larger, or RMN/GSN subwallers instead of RHN ones, you can hunt bigger game. And before long, the RHN units are likely to have Ghost Rider recon drones too for the recon duty and one-way FTL missile profile refinement.

Hello,

I think it will take a few years for Haven to get to Ghost Rider's microfusion plants, or Manti-style apollos. Which is why those will be built in Beowulf.

I'd had in mind just RHN ships getting those drones from Manticore or Beowulf, yes, rather than Haven-built Ghost Rider parasites. They may take a little refitting to get the full benefit ship-side, and they may require RMN or BSDF loaner techs for maintenance and operation. Still and all, all that's doable soon and easily without upgrading Haven's production capabilities.

But they are very likely already able to build Erewhon-style Mk-17e, and with help maybe the latest generation of the mk-36 and mk-14 with the E-version mod to grav lensing. That still rather drastically outranges and outguns Sollie light ships (especially since you need at least a heavy cruiser for the Sollie Cataphract).

But before the Havenite tech base gets all the way caught up, Manticore ought to have a large part of its industrial output (and some shipyards) back. Given the assistance and disaster relief they got from Beowulf, they may already have some small missile manufacture ongoing-- it has already been 8 months as of the end of CoG, and Trevor's Star wasn't destroyed, so the space available needed to be re-purposed, not built from scratch.

The current leadership of the SLN will likely be completely gone by the time Haven is getting caught up, either by Kingsford pruning the deadwood or by being scapegoated by Abruzzi for not being able to suddenly catch Manti missiles in their teeth.

It could work out very dangerously for Abruzzi to throw many officers under the bus. As usual, no one is loyal to the League, and if the civilians are going to screw the officers when the officers haven't been prepared for the suicide missions the civilians are sticking them with.... Well, it would be hard to do more work than that to make the Sepoy Option and warlordism look grand in the fleet.

Audrey O'Hanrahan ought to be useful in identifying the true losers to the general Sollie public, so maybe al-Fahnudafi will finally get a promotion?

just before the Malign sends Bardasano's replacement/clone out to murder him.

You know, that may be a hard call for the Alignment. On the one hand, al-Fanudahi is heading up a group that could expose them from the League side, which will make him a dead man if the Alignment ever suspects. On the other, it's going to be work like his that will make the League last a little longer and (more importantly, for the Alignment) hurt the Grand Alliance more before it goes down.

JeffEngel wrote:Even Havenite cruisers and destroyers will have missiles with some range advantage over Frontier Fleet units. Combine a few of those with one of just about any RMN unit with Ghost Rider recon drones and you can punch out modest FF detachments. Then fly away and repeat as necessary.

Actually I'm not sure that current Havenite cruiser weight missiles have a range advantage over the SLN Javalin. We've seen no evidence that Haven cracked ERM tech to increase missile runtimes beyond 60 seconds/180 seconds full/half power. So unless / until they have that tech I think they're going to have a slight range disadvantage vs SLN light units; because shockingly the Javelin has marginally better accel than even any RMN missile we've seen.

The Javelin is capable of 47,653 G for 180 s at 50% power; resulting in a max powered range of 7,565,400 km.
Last we knew the Havenite missiles were still only good for 46,000 G for 180 s at 50% power resulting in a max powered range of 7,302,960 km

Also, per Duckk's info on the Cataphract (which is where I got my Javelin numbers from) the SLN must have ERM tech because the CM drive 2nd stage has a 75 second runtime; which even Manticore didn't have until after the Battle of Sidemore. So even smaller FF units might get ERM missiles faster than you'd expect -- which would level the range playing field against anything older than a Roland, Sag-C, BC(P), or BC(L).

(Now their missile defense still appears to suck, and they don't mount enough tubes -- so odds are they'll still get beat up pretty badly. But I wouldn't count on Haven's light units being able to do so from far enough back that they don't take return fire)

Jonathan_S wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Even Havenite cruisers and destroyers will have missiles with some range advantage over Frontier Fleet units. Combine a few of those with one of just about any RMN unit with Ghost Rider recon drones and you can punch out modest FF detachments. Then fly away and repeat as necessary.

Actually I'm not sure that current Havenite cruiser weight missiles have a range advantage over the SLN Javalin. We've seen no evidence that Haven cracked ERM tech to increase missile runtimes beyond 60 seconds/180 seconds full/half power. So unless / until they have that tech I think they're going to have a slight range disadvantage vs SLN light units; because shockingly the Javelin has marginally better accel than even any RMN missile we've seen.

The Javelin is capable of 47,653 G for 180 s at 50% power; resulting in a max powered range of 7,565,400 km.
Last we knew the Havenite missiles were still only good for 46,000 G for 180 s at 50% power resulting in a max powered range of 7,302,960 km

Also, per Duckk's info on the Cataphract (which is where I got my Javelin numbers from) the SLN must have ERM tech because the CM drive 2nd stage has a 75 second runtime; which even Manticore didn't have until after the Battle of Sidemore. So even smaller FF units might get ERM missiles faster than you'd expect -- which would level the range playing field against anything older than a Roland, Sag-C, BC(P), or BC(L).

(Now their missile defense still appears to suck, and they don't mount enough tubes -- so odds are they'll still get beat up pretty badly. But I wouldn't count on Haven's light units being able to do so from far enough back that they don't take return fire)

The Sollies also have a slow launcher reload rate. Given that (later) Havenite light units were built to face Manticoran missile salvos, it's questionable how much of that return fire would actually hit the Havenites, given near-parity in tonnage between opposing forces. But yes, the Havenites wouldn't be able to snipe with impunity like people with MK16 missiles can.

Jonathan_S wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Even Havenite cruisers and destroyers will have missiles with some range advantage over Frontier Fleet units. Combine a few of those with one of just about any RMN unit with Ghost Rider recon drones and you can punch out modest FF detachments. Then fly away and repeat as necessary.

Actually I'm not sure that current Havenite cruiser weight missiles have a range advantage over the SLN Javalin. We've seen no evidence that Haven cracked ERM tech to increase missile runtimes beyond 60 seconds/180 seconds full/half power. So unless / until they have that tech I think they're going to have a slight range disadvantage vs SLN light units; because shockingly the Javelin has marginally better accel than even any RMN missile we've seen.

The Javelin is capable of 47,653 G for 180 s at 50% power; resulting in a max powered range of 7,565,400 km.
Last we knew the Havenite missiles were still only good for 46,000 G for 180 s at 50% power resulting in a max powered range of 7,302,960 km

Also, per Duckk's info on the Cataphract (which is where I got my Javelin numbers from) the SLN must have ERM tech because the CM drive 2nd stage has a 75 second runtime; which even Manticore didn't have until after the Battle of Sidemore. So even smaller FF units might get ERM missiles faster than you'd expect -- which would level the range playing field against anything older than a Roland, Sag-C, BC(P), or BC(L).

(Now their missile defense still appears to suck, and they don't mount enough tubes -- so odds are they'll still get beat up pretty badly. But I wouldn't count on Haven's light units being able to do so from far enough back that they don't take return fire)

I expect that Haven got ERMs in the Erewhonese/Manty-lite tech transfer. They are, no doubt, bulkier than an equivalent Manticoran ERM, however.
We know that Haven got everything Erewhon had, but since we've been mostly focused on MDM and DDM range combat, Havenite light units with ERMs still wouldn't be in range without towing pods and so their having ERMs wouldn't have come up.

Keep them as they are:
Home Fleet(Manticore)
Home Fleet(Grayson)
1st Fleet (Beowulf)
Capital Fleet(Haven)
2nd Fleet(Haven)
8th Fleet/Grand Fleet(Grand Alliance)

3rd Fleet Defence of Trevor's Star
9th and 10th Fleets remain as they are.

Any subsequent Fleets are named from the pool of free numbered fleets not already used.

Kytheros wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Actually I'm not sure that current Havenite cruiser weight missiles have a range advantage over the SLN Javalin. We've seen no evidence that Haven cracked ERM tech to increase missile runtimes beyond 60 seconds/180 seconds full/half power. So unless / until they have that tech I think they're going to have a slight range disadvantage vs SLN light units; because shockingly the Javelin has marginally better accel than even any RMN missile we've seen.[snip]

I expect that Haven got ERMs in the Erewhonese/Manty-lite tech transfer. They are, no doubt, bulkier than an equivalent Manticoran ERM, however.
We know that Haven got everything Erewhon had, but since we've been mostly focused on MDM and DDM range combat, Havenite light units with ERMs still wouldn't be in range without towing pods and so their having ERMs wouldn't have come up.

Good point. While we haven't seen Havenite ERMs "on-screen" we do know Erewhon has them (because they gave their version of the Mark 14 cruiser-weight ERM to Maya) so it's reasonable to assume they were offered to Haven.

Then the question becomes; how much of a rebuild is required to install magazines and tubes capable of handling the larger ERM missiles?
I can't recall evidence of how aggressive Haven has been refitting their lighter ship classes; or whether they've been building new designs. (Though SoS had a indirect mention of cease-fire or later era rebuild spec for a Mars-class; replacing the problematic fusion reactors and rebuilding the impeller rooms to be compatible with bow/stern walls). So it's potentially possible they have ERM tech but most of their current light units can't use ERMs. Or maybe they've heavily refit and the vast majority can; we just don't know.

ERMs would have a clear range advantage over Javelins, but be at a disadvantage over Cataphracts. Though the Cataphract suffers from warhead size, lase-rod count, and ECM payload compared to a ERM fired from the same class ship...

Sigs wrote:Keep them as they are:
Home Fleet(Manticore)
Home Fleet(Grayson)
1st Fleet (Beowulf)
Capital Fleet(Haven)
2nd Fleet(Haven)
8th Fleet/Grand Fleet(Grand Alliance)

3rd Fleet Defence of Trevor's Star
9th and 10th Fleets remain as they are.

Any subsequent Fleets are named from the pool of free numbered fleets not already used.

A few additional fleets come to my mind:

Haven:
- The remains of 5th Fleet which escaped after BOMA
- The training fleet based at Bolthole
- Plenty of additional task groups and task forces for area defence in the Republic

Andermani:
- None of their fleets have were affected by Oyster Bay. They won't (as far as we know) be used against the SLN but are available to relieve 10th Fleet at Mesa to allow it to attack deeper into the League, and will help search/attack the Alignment

Grayson:
- Home Fleet (as has already been mentioned) its not clear whether this was the Grayson fleet at Manticore during Raging Justice
- The Protector's Own Squadron (a fleet in its own right)
- Possibly enough other podnaughts/CLACs to form another fleet (or at least a task force) to donate to the Grand Fleet (if it wasn't Home Fleet at Manticore during Raging Justice, then they definitely do)

Manticore:
- 3rd Fleet - it doesn't seem likely (to me) that Manticore had enough production capacity to rebuild this yet given the need to reconstitute Home Fleet and reinforce 8th, and is it even necessary? 3rd was tasked with the defence of Trevor's Star from Haven. All that is now needed is a task group detached from Home Fleet which would be able to destroy anything the SLN could send that direction.
- Home Fleet - seems to have disappeared along with their Admiral during Raging Justice - all the Manticoran ships present seem to have been 8th Fleet