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The cruiser future in the RMN - another go

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Re: The cruiser future in the RMN - another go
Post by JeffEngel   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:42 am

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Carl wrote:@JeffEngal: No one's suggesting on mount weapon crews be dropped, given just how common having weapons connections to central cut by battle damage was in the books where we've got to see that kind of detail it would represent an unacceptable loss of combat power in any kind of actual fight. Even Pirates with much more pressing reasons to drop crew don;t drop that which should tell you something about how important they are. What may be possible is that they've managed via automation to reduce the number of on mount crew.

I'm certainly suggesting reducing or eliminating on mount crews. I know it's a radical suggestion, but I do think it's reasonable and inevitable for cost savings for a unit not intended to slug it out to the end like battlecruisers and wallers.

Weapons fired by on mount crews alone are much less effective, and there isn't often too much time between losing central fire direction and losing the ship or the weapons. So it's a capability that's eating up a lot of personnel, and with them the volume to support them and the money to keep them. If you don't need every last measure of combat capability even while sustaining damage, it's something that you need to consider dropping very seriously. And you don't need that for a warship the duties of which include desperate combat to the bitter end against a peer opponent only as one among many. Navies need too many cruisers to try to build them all as Nike's or Nike-wannabe's.

Pirates are a specifically bad analogy. For one, they don't have a pressing need to reduce excess crew - they need excess crew for prizes, boarding, and keeping captives under control. Having them work as on mount crews is a fine way to keep idle hands from causing trouble. For another, unlike national navies, pirates cannot count on having the money for the good automation of systems, or the access to skilled engineers and specific spare parts to keep it running. Labor-intensive solutions are a lot better for them, not worse.
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Re: The cruiser future in the RMN - another go
Post by SharkHunter   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 4:50 pm

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My "cruiser of the future" looks an awful lot like a fat Star Knight hull, with Roland "plus" modular mission capabilities.

Consider that the Star Knight has around 80m more length than the Roland, and 40% more girth (some of which I'd use for armor - though perhaps not CA weight plus automation, I'd wager they could shove in close to 400 DDM's into the girth, and still have that additional hull length for interesting mission configurable modules, likely most involving Marines. Other differences would be going back to two fusion plants instead of the Star Knight's three [known design error], and NO flag deck, but a single command deck configured with flag level capability and aux-con etc. more tightly integrated with engineering spaces. State of the art everything else in terms of inertial compensators, at least CA level control links plus planned rotating control, more CM's / ECM/ stealth / recon capability of course. Plus unpowered till needed missile pod racks / rails to allow a longer and heavier early salvo throw weight.

Big question is whether that added length would give enough space to mount a future variant of FTL missile control tech for missions where that capability would make sense in independent operations such as convoy escort duties, etc.

Thoughts?
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: The cruiser future in the RMN - another go
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:14 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:My "cruiser of the future" looks an awful lot like a fat Star Knight hull, with Roland "plus" modular mission capabilities.

Consider that the Star Knight has around 80m more length than the Roland, and 40% more girth (some of which I'd use for armor - though perhaps not CA weight plus automation, I'd wager they could shove in close to 400 DDM's into the girth, and still have that additional hull length for interesting mission configurable modules, likely most involving Marines. [snip]

Thoughts?

Width:
Roland - 54m
Star Knight - 63m
Sag-B - 71m
Sag-C - 74m

"the new Mark 16 MDM. Nothing smaller (or older) than a Saganami-C-class ship would ever be able to handle them, but the Saganami-Cs had been designed around the new, larger Mark 9-c tubes." [SoS].
OK Helen's musing was obviously incorrect, since the hammerhead only design let them squeeze Mk16s into the Roland-class DD. But I doubt she was much wrong about the size it would take to install those tubes as a conventional broadside layout; and she had to know that the Sag-C was only 4% wider than the 'older/smaller' Sag-B.


You'd have to do one of the exotic layouts people have speculated here to fit tubes that long into a Star Knight sized hull that's only 85% the width of a Sag-C...
(Or did I misunderstand what you intended; were you thinking of Roland-style chase tubes, but with additional magazines amidships?)
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Re: The cruiser future in the RMN - another go
Post by SharkHunter   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:33 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:My "cruiser of the future" looks an awful lot like a fat Star Knight hull, with Roland "plus" modular mission capabilities.

Consider that the Star Knight has around 80m more length than the Roland, and 40% more girth (some of which I'd use for armor - though perhaps not CA weight plus automation, I'd wager they could shove in close to 400 DDM's into the girth, and still have that additional hull length for interesting mission configurable modules, likely most involving Marines. [snip]

Thoughts?

Width:
Roland - 54m
Star Knight - 63m
Sag-B - 71m
Sag-C - 74m

"the new Mark 16 MDM. Nothing smaller (or older) than a Saganami-C-class ship would ever be able to handle them, but the Saganami-Cs had been designed around the new, larger Mark 9-c tubes." [SoS].
OK Helen's musing was obviously incorrect, since the hammerhead only design let them squeeze Mk16s into the Roland-class DD. But I doubt she was much wrong about the size it would take to install those tubes as a conventional broadside layout; and she had to know that the Sag-C was only 4% wider than the 'older/smaller' Sag-B.


You'd have to do one of the exotic layouts people have speculated here to fit tubes that long into a Star Knight sized hull that's only 85% the width of a Sag-C...
(Or did I misunderstand what you intended; were you thinking of Roland-style chase tubes, but with additional magazines amidships?)
Roland style tubes with additional magazine space in the girth and perhaps some amidships, primarily. I fudged factored the missile count (400) as 250 Roland plus 40% girth plus sneaky fit plus a few percent extra, if that makes sense. If nothing else, adding current flatpack pods would up the DDM count quite heavily.

Not at the MaxxQ level (hope I got his moniker right), but I can picture a couple of configurations in my head that would still be somewhat modular. Might be that the hull configuration would look something like \\\\\ mission & crew ///// with an added layer of missile capability <=======> magazine space amidships with the \\\ being the angled tubes, and the equals signs being stowed missiles that can get to the tubes.
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: The cruiser future in the RMN - another go
Post by Relax   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:09 pm

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FWIW: MK-16 is 15m long. So we are probably talking about 32m max required in regards to beam.

EDIT: Tubes grav drivers interact with the sidewall for the tubes acceleration length. I always think of them as super powerful pressers(grav drivers)
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Re: The cruiser future in the RMN - another go
Post by Relax   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:23 pm

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Carl wrote:@Relax: We have no info on how honour transmitted the the Hermes Bouy though, if she did it via the keyhole platforms rather than her onboard grav com, (seems the most likely as the grav com probably only has so many channel's).


Keyhole is nothing but a relay for light and grav communications. All it does is double what is already in the broadside of a ship for controlling a missile or communications with RD's/Hermes buoy's.

Besides: We do know that smaller units use Hermes buoy's without Keyhole. We know smaller units have FTL com before they had Hermes buoy's as well. Even if one limits the FTL com to tiny number of missiles all this requires to get more FTL bandwidth is to use a second Hermes buoy. Eventually one runs out of boat bay space for hermes buoy's and one is better off with a Keyhole. Where that missile total cut-off is according to BuShips, is complete handwavium because if one uses reality where can sustain 2 way FTL video feed, you have more than enough bandwidth to operate an enormous number of missiles. RFC has limited reality to a small number of control links. How many "control links" is a Hermes buoy as shown by Honor? Well, we do know, about 50.
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Re: The cruiser future in the RMN - another go
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:43 pm

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Relax wrote:Keyhole is nothing but a relay for light and grav communications. All it does is double what is already in the broadside of a ship for controlling a missile or communications with RD's/Hermes buoy's.

Besides: We do know that smaller units use Hermes buoy's without Keyhole. We know smaller units have FTL com before they had Hermes buoy's as well. Even if one limits the FTL com to tiny number of missiles all this requires to get more FTL bandwidth is to use a second Hermes buoy. Eventually one runs out of boat bay space for hermes buoy's and one is better off with a Keyhole. Where that missile total cut-off is according to BuShips, is complete handwavium because if one uses reality where can sustain 2 way FTL video feed, you have more than enough bandwidth to operate an enormous number of missiles. RFC has limited reality to a small number of control links. How many "control links" is a Hermes buoy as shown by Honor? Well, we do know, about 50.

Actually since it was talking to just the Apollo control missiles of that < 60 missile swarm the Hermes buoy was probably only handling 7 control links. That's how Apollo gives you control link multiplication; you only need a single link to talk to the whole pod and the ACM expands on what you gave it to give the individual attack/ECM birds their marching orders.

And we know from a later post bit of text-ev that Honor didn't have anywhere near as effective control of those (less than 60) missiles as it appeared. It seems that she barely had enough to steer them through the enemy formation at very high speed, then pull off a demonstration attack on empty space.
She even admitted it was a bluff and she wouldn't have been able to engage Tourville's ships at that range.
So only even juryrigging a handful of control links through a Hermes buoy doesn't seem to give you the kind of limited capacity FTL sniper ability you might think.


I know you hate how the control links are represented, but within the limits David set Hermes buoys just don't appear to have the capabilities you're talking about.
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Re: The cruiser future in the RMN - another go
Post by Relax   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:59 pm

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One does not have to have perfection in all aspects for this to work. UH, do not even have to dip into "reaility" for control link usage. Just stick with what has already been written in the HV.

Well, normal missiles do not have FTL comms so the long range FTL is kaput. Rather we are only looking at using Hermes as a stand in psuedo Keyhole. For missiles at extended range, sending same instructions to 8 missiles instead of 1 is good enough, unless for some reason you are going to send fewer than 8 missiles against a single ship. Against LAC's this would obviously be sub optimal. Of course LAC's at extended range are not shooting at you so you can use your broadside transmitters.

Of course one still has the ability of deploying more than one Hermes buoy assuming one has the boat bay hold space. Since we are talking about a new larger ship, the space is available. If nothing else if we limit the Hermes buoy's to only defensive usage allowing the wedge towards the enemy and fire your CM's or part of your CM's, this would be a monster bonus.

Only really need a pseudo Keyhole ability for a light combatant. Full capability would be nice. It is not needed.
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Re: The cruiser future in the RMN - another go
Post by dreamrider   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:00 pm

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Relax wrote:Keyhole is nothing but a relay for light and grav communications. All it does is double what is already in the broadside of a ship for controlling a missile or communications with RD's/Hermes buoy's.



Note that most of "Keyhole" is on-board the equipped ship. The two deployables are perhaps not merely the 'tip of the iceberg', but at least that much volume again is taken up by the on-board portion of the system.

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Re: The cruiser future in the RMN - another go
Post by Carl   » Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:27 pm

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@Relax: I think somehow you completely misunderstood everything i was saying there.

1. I was saying we don;t know if she used the ship to ship FTL commm's or re-purposed her on board come system, but i'd guess she was using Keyhole. A ship without Keyhole 2 probably ins't going to have enough FTL channels to feed many control link's through a buoy.

2. What does how many boat bay's have to do with anything. Oh wait you actually think the herme's Buoy is some kind of recon drone? LOL. per honours own statement to tourville they'e pre placed platforms. That very strongly suggest that in line with their buoy designation their virtually immobile if not totally so. In fact didn't Honour create her recon shell a basilisk by converting Buoy's to accept her old school recon drones? and i'm pretty sure their complete inability to maneuver seriously was brought up.

@JeffEngal: This has been brought up in another thread but Pirates want the smallest crew possible because crew represents a huge expense for them which cuts into profits.

Also what your suggesting is basically an over glorified coast guard cutter. A ship not actually intended to fight equivalent warships that's still nonetheless armed in a somewhat lesser fashion.

One problem with that. The RMN per DW himself does not build such specialised designs. if they build a light combatant it will not be designed such that it becomes a liability the moment an actual war breaks out because it's not designed for the rigours of actual combat vs actual warships.
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