Mesan Alignment Questions...

Hutch wrote:"Sigs"]I'm not talking about a system neighbouring an already occupied system, think in distances of hundreds of light years through unexplored and unoccupied space from the furthest explored and occupied system. Start with one or two systems and build up their industrial power according to a plan and expand from there. If there is anyone in the series who does not have a problem with Manpower is it Mesa since they have a virtually unlimited source of manpower as well as being in possession of the timetable for the war no one else is aware of nor with the enemy they even know exists.

As for beings discovered? Anyone who is brave enough to explore that far from human space can quietly disappear, I mean seriously, we have already seen that they tend to disregard the value of human life, at least those that don't belong to their side. As long as they mange to keep a separation between themselves and the rest of humanity they can in a few centuries organize a Star Nation that has the military muscle to destroy the SLN and every other organized force in one fell swoop.

After the initial investment of manpower and resources for the new colonies Mesa can then turn around and imbed itself in to every aspect of Solarian life and be a fifth column when the war starts as well as a source of information on research and development. All that they need to do is keep the Solarian League from Exploring towards them, and they need to keep their people focused inward rather than outward.

I see where you are going, and in an alternate universe to the MWW's, it might even be an interesting plot.

But there are some problems with it, IMHO.

1. It's hard to populate literally hundreds of planets, much less find them. Mesa began with a limited population and is still, centuries later, something like 6 billion (IIRC), of which over 60% are either slaves or descendents of freed slaves (seccies). Colonizing, populating, industializing and controlling hundreds of planets to focus them (in the end) on Galatic control is perhaps a job even beyond the Alphas.

2. Staying in contact with a civilization hundreds of light years away (and that you don't want to have any idea that you exist) is going to be difficult, especially if you are using Mesa as a conduit. Somebody is going to spot those odd spaceships coming and going. And while the Alphas and other 'uplifted' folks may think they are smart enough to develop the weapons necessary in isolation to take over, history is littered with Kingdons secure in the knowledge that they were superior--until someone else came along and showed them they were not (see China and to some extent, Japan, in the 19th century).

So I think the policy of going far away and then coming back with overwhelming advantages, while possible, is a bit more problematic than the MAlignment's 'burrow from within' stragety.

But YMMV.[/quote]


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Good comments all --
But keep in mind that Albrect Det's strategic and tactical failing in his plans is that he deviated from the plan -- accelerating the implementation of his end-game long before his needed resources were developed. (aspect of the Law of Unintended Consequences)

He and Ben/Colin/Daniel/Everett/Franklin etc THOUGHT they had a nice safe distance and isolation except thru conduits / wormholes that they effectively controlled and SL OSF Governors and Commissioners that they could "influence".
That changed.
They didn't exactly panic, but their response wasn't too far off a knee-jerk jumping from Stage 1 into their Stage 3.

Again see Law of Unintended Consequences.
Similar to Japan's WWII Pearl Harbor attack and missing the (then) 4 Carriers that were not in harbor, compounded by not having time to develop the resources (primarily oil and rubber) in their 1940/1941 capture of Indonesia (then Dutch East Indies).
Nazi Germany made similar developmental errors, for which the late 20th Century can be grateful.

The Det's will fail, eventually; the only question is the physical, societal and cultural collateral damage.

-- Stewart

Hutch wrote:I see where you are going, and in an alternate universe to the MWW's, it might even be an interesting plot.

But there are some problems with it, IMHO.

1. It's hard to populate literally hundreds of planets, much less find them. Mesa began with a limited population and is still, centuries later, something like 6 billion (IIRC), of which over 60% are either slaves or descendents of freed slaves (seccies). Colonizing, populating, industializing and controlling hundreds of planets to focus them (in the end) on Galatic control is perhaps a job even beyond the Alphas.

2. Staying in contact with a civilization hundreds of light years away (and that you don't want to have any idea that you exist) is going to be difficult, especially if you are using Mesa as a conduit. Somebody is going to spot those odd spaceships coming and going. And while the Alphas and other 'uplifted' folks may think they are smart enough to develop the weapons necessary in isolation to take over, history is littered with Kingdons secure in the knowledge that they were superior--until someone else came along and showed them they were not (see China and to some extent, Japan, in the 19th century).

So I think the policy of going far away and then coming back with overwhelming advantages, while possible, is a bit more problematic than the MAlignment's 'burrow from within' stragety.

But YMMV.

1)They (Mesa) have a small population because they choose to have the small population. They have breeding facilities where they make slaves, instead of genetically engineering slaves they can genetically engineer colonists for their expansion. People who will not be missed and who will not leave relatives to ask awkward questions. Once they get their initial colony set up they can initiate their population growth through the old fashioned way (intercourse) and through other methods.

2) Staying in contact with Mesa and keeping tabs on the Solarian League and all other minor powers could equate to a download to a dispatch boat once a year or once every two years or even five. If there is something large that needs to be transferred, well there is plenty of empty space to make a stealthy meeting possible. They are far enough that no one will accidently stumble on to them, so once the initial colony is set up then the Mesan side of the operation will go ahead as it has, as a fifth column within the Solarian League.

The current strategy, at least to me, appears to depend on one Nation defeating another nation and in turn a third nation defeating the second nation and all those are dependant on any number of individual operations which are mutually dependant and may require succession one for success in the subsequent operations.

They may be rational, or they may be irrational... it does not matter. The Mesan Alignment went for 600 years without being discovered even though several nations and organizations were working on infiltrating Mesa for intelligence purposes all the while they set up a fifth column in the Solarian League, build up a secret base and researched technologies that allowed them to launch an attack undetected not to mention ships that are faster(strategically) than anyone else in the known Galaxy.

Sigs wrote:1)They (Mesa) have a small population because they choose to have the small population. They have breeding facilities where they make slaves, instead of genetically engineering slaves they can genetically engineer colonists for their expansion. People who will not be missed and who will not leave relatives to ask awkward questions. Once they get their initial colony set up they can initiate their population growth through the old fashioned way (intercourse) and through other methods.

2) Staying in contact with Mesa and keeping tabs on the Solarian League and all other minor powers could equate to a download to a dispatch boat once a year or once every two years or even five. If there is something large that needs to be transferred, well there is plenty of empty space to make a stealthy meeting possible. They are far enough that no one will accidently stumble on to them, so once the initial colony is set up then the Mesan side of the operation will go ahead as it has, as a fifth column within the Solarian League.

The current strategy, at least to me, appears to depend on one Nation defeating another nation and in turn a third nation defeating the second nation and all those are dependant on any number of individual operations which are mutually dependant and may require succession one for success in the subsequent operations.

They may be rational, or they may be irrational... it does not matter. The Mesan Alignment went for 600 years without being discovered even though several nations and organizations were working on infiltrating Mesa for intelligence purposes all the while they set up a fifth column in the Solarian League, build up a secret base and researched technologies that allowed them to launch an attack undetected not to mention ships that are faster(strategically) than anyone else in the known Galaxy.

I disagree about whether it would have been practical for them to establish such a large set of colonies far enough away that they would never be discovered.

But your underlying premise is that the Mesan Alignment did not choose the best or easiest route to their stated goals. And you are absolutely correct. There have been numerous discussions on this forum about that in the past. Almost everyone agrees that there were better methods of achieving what they say is their goal. Even the (non-Alignment) characters in the book have commented on it. And David Weber has more or less said the same thing in his posts.

We may disagree on exactly what is the best method of achieving the supposed Alignment goals, but there really is no question that the method they chose is not it.

Kizarvexis wrote:It's not so much about conquering as the Detweilers showing that they are RIGHT.

I've been saying it here for years.

In the end, the sociopathy level of the Malignment is going to prevent any massive, centrally controlled governmental entity. The Renaissance Factor appears to be loosely organized but under Lenny's pretty direct control. I can imagine that for a dozen planets for a while I suppose. Not centuries, however. I just don't see such beings being able to knuckle under to central control even if limiting the number of star line actors allows those individuals great power in effect reducing competition and increasing the size of available pie slices.

Galaxy-wide, should they ever win, about the best future I can envision is competing clans. Competition would be along both genetic and political lines. Probably would end up like feudal Japan, but there have been worse cultures. What I see as impossible is anything like a galaxy-wide long range planning board under the direct control of the head of the Detweilers. And if there do end up being, say, a thousand Detweiler clones, what exactly makes the 999 give complete and utter allegiance to the 1 given their makeup? Going back to feudal Japan, rarely have we seen the concept of allegiance to the authority of a star line more deified--and within the star line itself--less honored in actual practice. I'm surprised we haven't seen a clone coup as yet over 6 centuries.

The problem is that you are dealing with human beings and one of our fundamentals is that we don't like being told what to do.

In terms of this discussion, were the MAlign to succeed in establish a bunch of colonies out in the back and beyond, it wouldn't be long before most of their energy would be spent keepin their problem children in line.

Don

jgnfld wrote:In the end, the sociopathy level of the Malignment is going to prevent any massive, centrally controlled governmental entity. The Renaissance Factor appears to be loosely organized but under Lenny's pretty direct control. I can imagine that for a dozen planets for a while I suppose. Not centuries, however. I just don't see such beings being able to knuckle under to central control even if limiting the number of star line actors allows those individuals great power in effect reducing competition and increasing the size of available pie slices.

Galaxy-wide, should they ever win, about the best future I can envision is competing clans. Competition would be along both genetic and political lines. Probably would end up like feudal Japan, but there have been worse cultures. What I see as impossible is anything like a galaxy-wide long range planning board under the direct control of the head of the Detweilers. And if there do end up being, say, a thousand Detweiler clones, what exactly makes the 999 give complete and utter allegiance to the 1 given their makeup? Going back to feudal Japan, rarely have we seen the concept of allegiance to the authority of a star line more deified--and within the star line itself--less honored in actual practice. I'm surprised we haven't seen a clone coup as yet over 6 centuries.

Given that unsuitable characteristics are routinely culled from the Alpha lines, we can easily assume that one of those is 'I believe, I can do a better job than the Detweilers'

The Detweilers have an obsession to demonstrate to the Beowulfers that, to paraphrase another genetically enhanced superman, "Theirs is the superior mind." Similarly, the Faithful were obsessed with recovering Grayson from the Apostates, for "This World is God's." Meanwhile, they were ignoring the much better hand they had been dealt with Masada.

In both cases, they were so devoted to their idee fixe that nothing else mattered.