Thandi vs. Honor

Nah, you guys have it all wrong.

1, 2, 3, 4

I declare a Thumb WAR!

saber964 wrote:

Zakharra wrote:Assuming a fight came down to hand to hand combat (lethal or sparring), I would give the victory to Thandi. Even though Thandi is younger than Honor, she is trained to a hair, specifically, in melee/hand to hand combat. It is Thandi's job after all. Honor, as good as she is, is a dabbler in hand to hand combat. She isn't trained as well as Thandi and it's not her main focus (naval maneuvering and warships is). And Honor might have been studying martial arts longer than Thandi has been alive, but this stuff is Thandi's job, and she is a specialist in melee combat and ground combat. Honor is a specialist in naval tactics. Those are two noticeably different fields of combat and as in all things, the specialists are better at their jobs than those who aren't specialists.

Ask the idiots involved with Maccabeus coup attempt if Honor can't do close quarter hand-to-hand combat. And as I posted earlier Honor killed all but one of her opponents. Or Pavel Young's ghost for that matter on his memories of the ass-whooping he got in the showers.

I'm not saying Honor isn't good at it. What I am saying is she wouldn't be as good at is as someone who does that sort of stuff for as living. Honor is, at the best, a dabbler in hand to have combat. She is damned good at it and have excellent reflexes and hand eye coordination, but Thandie does this sort of stuff for a living. It's what she specifically trains for and she is very good at it. Basically Thandie is the expert in hand to hand, Honor isn't. She is a very good amateur.

I also submit that the idiots in the Maccabeus coup were not exactly the best at their trade either, and they didn't expect a mere woman to be a threat (or a certain 6 legged 'pet either)

Relax wrote:Nah, you guys have it all wrong.

1, 2, 3, 4

I declare a Thumb WAR!

Nah, Rock, Paper, Scissors!!

Still think Thandi would win a fight (or spar) against Honor, and here's some additional points.


Every single fight (or spar) Honor has ever been in, has been against an opponent(s) that are at least one of the following:
1) Weaker
2) Slower
3) Shorter
4) Fatter


Let's review most of the physical fights (friendly, and deadly) Honor has been in:

Fight 1) Protecting the Protector, Grayson. Honor is taller and stronger than the men, so she had a psychological advantage in addition to physical of being from an even higher grav planet.

Fight 2) Sparring with Paul Tankersley. Prior to their sparring agreement, Paul even tells her, that he was from Manticore. But his Coup Instructor made it mandatory to "turn up the grav plates" to toughen up the non-Sphinx sissies.

Their first fight, Honor being accustomed to having both strength and reflex advantages, took a liberty with Paul and ended up on her back, staring up at him in astonishment. She then shows him a move she learned from Hibson (presumably while on her Grayson mission)


Fight 3) Sparring with Gunny Hallowell, on the HMAMC Wayfarer.

One of the only fights where Honor's only superiority is her Sphinx-bred strength and reflexes, the Gunny was both taller (5cm advantage) and better trained (8th black belt to Honor's 7th). Outpointed by a bare margin, although admittedly it said the spar could have gone Honor's way.


Fight 4) Duel with Denver Summervale - Admittedly this isn't hand to hand, but it does show how Honor tends to rely more on reflexes (and kinesthesia) to beat Denver by firing from the hip, instead of the more usual "lift arm, then fire"


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Now in Thandi's favor, as everyone says, she does fighting for a living. Put her in command of a ship, or fleet, she'd be nearly as lost as Honor would be if Honor were dropped into a large firefight command. (the Avalanche where she ended up rescuing Susan Hibson + others, doesn't really count as commanding a ground engagement)

Thandi "sparred" with Scag females. Scag's being genetically "superior", they would definitely have very good reflexes, and strength. Thandi left her ladies with broken limbs during a spar.

And also someone else mentioned, how Thandi literally caved in Scag (and Masadan) skulls, with her fists, leaving the same general holes most people need sledgehammers to do. Then later is moving just fast enough, Victor Cachet's eyes couldn't stay focused on her. That's some serious speed, but we can attribute some of that visual loss on the lights going out, and really the only illumination is from panels, emergency lights, and possibly weapon flashes.

I figure the physical attributes of the two (strength, speed, ...) are roughly even. I'd put mental toughness and intelligence as a push as well. Honor is extremely well trained in a martial arts discipline. Thandi, on the other hand, is equally well trained in hand to hand combat as well and pretty much does it for a living. Experience counts and I've never heard of a bar brawl, a street fight or any other hand to hand melee following the Marquis of Queensbury Rules.

Honor is very very good but, as pointed out in one of the recent books, Thandi is a force of nature.

If they spar, I figure it's even because you hold back at least a little while sparring to keep from hurting a friendly.

If they fight for blood, I'll take Thandi by a slight margin. Honor's never had to really fight an opponent that matches up so well. She's always had some sort physical advantage.

I think we need a warm up sparring match first:

Yana vs. Susan Hibson or Iris Babcock.

SLN Marine trained, size, and in theory super-reflexes against RMN trained and known to be uber-sneaky. I even know how to get Yana to be more willing to play: "hey, at least Iris (probably) won't break your arm if she gets irritated!" or "hey, Susan's such a little bitty thing compared to the Great Kaja, you oughtta at least stand a chance, and at least she won't..."

[just don't tell our favorite gum chewing Marine who said that. Wouldn't want to get Hibson pissed off....]

SharkHunter wrote:I think we need a warm up sparring match first:

Yana vs. Susan Hibson or Iris Babcock.

SLN Marine trained, size, and in theory super-reflexes against RMN trained and known to be uber-sneaky. I even know how to get Yana to be more willing to play: "hey, at least Iris (probably) won't break your arm if she gets irritated!" or "hey, Susan's such a little bitty thing compared to the Great Kaja, you oughtta at least stand a chance, and at least she won't..."

[just don't tell our favorite gum chewing Marine who said that. Wouldn't want to get Hibson pissed off....]

This would actually be something to see. But would be Susan, I haven't read anything regarding Iris in ages, the most recent I've even heard her referenced is somewhere around Honor Among Enemies through Echoes of Honor area. The "oh Harkness is married to Gunny Babcock" meeting, and maybe a reference after the Hades breakout.

Yana vs Susan though, would definitely be something, because it could very easily start just off, something like "well aren't you tiny! And chewing gum, such a disgusting Man----OOOF!"

Popcorn selling fight ensues.

(and checking Wiki on Iris, I must buy House of Steel to get the absolute latest. Since it appears she at least makes a sentence long appeareance, as we get informed she's now Gunny at the Academy... still, she gets a tiny fraction of the book time Hibson gets)

Where will Nimitz be, while Honor is getting her ass kicked? If it's a friendly spar, Nimitz will be amused <Ooh, you're getting your ass kicked this time Honor. Funny!>

Can you imagine Harkness and Babcock inviting Honor out for a few drinks in a bar and a brawl breaks out? There are going to be some asses kicked and furniture broken in that bar fight.

Can you imagine Thandi in a bar fight? I'm talking some real human squash!

cthia wrote:Where will Nimitz be, while Honor is getting her ass kicked? If it's a friendly spar, Nimitz will be amused <Ooh, you're getting your ass kicked this time Honor. Funny!>

Can you imagine Harkness and Babcock inviting Honor out for a few drinks in a bar and a brawl breaks out? There are going to be some asses kicked and furniture broken in that bar fight.

Can you imagine Thandi in a bar fight? I'm talking some real human squash!

CThia take a bow. That was spitting soda funny.

SharkHunter wrote:

cthia wrote:Where will Nimitz be, while Honor is getting her ass kicked? If it's a friendly spar, Nimitz will be amused <Ooh, you're getting your ass kicked this time Honor. Funny!>

Can you imagine Harkness and Babcock inviting Honor out for a few drinks in a bar and a brawl breaks out? There are going to be some asses kicked and furniture broken in that bar fight.

Can you imagine Thandi in a bar fight? I'm talking some real human squash!

CThia take a bow. That was spitting soda funny.

Oh yes, Nimitz would have a ball ribbing Honor.

<Are you making love to that mat? You seem to be spending an awful lot of time on your back.>