Hi Dreamrider,
Nauvoo was in Illinois not Indiana.
I agree regarding the Manticoran salute, we don't know although some blocking clips at HonorCon last year showed someone saluting in a typical American fashion.
I wonder has this topic been the subject of any emails and background between RFC and the movie team?
L
dreamrider wrote:*quote="Weird Harold"*[quote="lyonheart"]What connection with the Romans do the Mormons have, especially for saluting?
None that I know of, other than old Hollywood depictions of Mormon militia using the right-fist=over-the-heart roman style salute.
(snip)
*quote*
The following citations are from Wikipedia:
"The Roman salute (Italian: saluto romano) is a gesture in which the arm is held out forward straight, with palm down, and fingers touching. In some versions, the arm is raised upward at an angle; in others, it is held out parallel to the ground. In contemporary times, the former is widely considered a symbol of fascism that is commonly perceived to be based on a custom in ancient Rome.[1] However, no Roman text gives this description and the Roman works of art that display salutational gestures bear little resemblance to the modern Roman salute.[1]
Jacques-Louis David's painting The Oath of the Horatii (1784) provided the starting point for the gesture that became later known as the Roman salute. The gesture and its identification with Roman culture was further developed in other neoclassic artworks. This was further elaborated upon in popular culture during the late 19th and early 20th centuries in plays and films... "
Further:
"Early Roman sources and images[edit]
The modern gesture consists of stiffly extending the right arm frontally and raising it roughly 135 degrees from the body's vertical axis, with the palm of the hand facing down and the fingers stretched out and touching each other.[1] According to common perceptions, this salute was based on an ancient Roman custom.[1] However, this description is unknown in Roman literature and is never mentioned by ancient historians of Rome.[1] Not a single Roman work of art, be it sculpture, coinage, or painting, displays a salute of this kind.[1] The gesture of the raised right arm or hand in Roman and other ancient cultures that does exist in surviving literature and art generally had a significantly different function and is never identical with the modern straight-arm salute.[1]"
Further:
"19th–20th centuries United States[edit]
{image}
Children performing the Bellamy salute to the flag of the United States
On October 12, 1892, the Bellamy salute was demonstrated as the hand gesture to accompany the Pledge of Allegiance in the United States. The inventor of the saluting gesture was James B. Upham, junior partner and editor of the The Youth's Companion.[24] Bellamy recalled Upham, upon reading the pledge, came into the posture of the salute, snapped his heels together, and said "Now up there is the flag; I come to salute; as I say 'I pledge allegiance to my flag,' I stretch out my right hand and keep it raised while I say the stirring words that follow."[24]
Because of the similarity between the Bellamy salute and the Nazi salute that emerged in Germany in 1920s, President Franklin D. Roosevelt instituted the hand-over-the-heart gesture as the salute to be rendered by civilians during the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem in the United States, instead of the Bellamy salute.[25] This was done when Congress officially adopted the Flag Code on June 22, 1942.[26] There was initially some resistance to dropping the Bellamy salute, for example from the Daughters of the American Revolution.[27]"
Further:
"Early 20th century in theatre and film[edit]
The gesture, already established in the United States through the Bellamy salute, has been traced to the Broadway production of the play Ben-Hur.[28] The play, based on Lew Wallace's book Ben-Hur: A Tale of the Christ, opened on Broadway in November, 1899 and proved to be a great success.[29] Photographs show several scenes using the gesture, including one of Ben-Hur greeting a seated sheik and another of a small crowd so greeting Ben-Hur in his chariot.[30] Neither Wallace's novel nor text for the theatrical production mentions a raised arm salute.[30] The salute was evidently added in keeping with the exaggerated style of acting in 19th century theater, which in turn influenced acting in the silent cinema.[31]
The salute frequently occurs in early 20th century films set in antiquity, such as the American Ben-Hur (1907) and the Italian Nerone (1908), although such films do not yet standardize it or make it exclusively Roman.[32] In Spartaco (1914), even the slave Spartacus uses it.[32] Later examples appear in Ben-Hur (1925) and in Cecil B. DeMille's Sign of the Cross (1932) and Cleopatra (1934), although the execution of the gesture is still variable.[32]
Of special note is the use in Giovanni Pastrone's colossal epic Cabiria (1914).[33]... (snip)... The diversity of the gesture and the variety of nationalities who use it in Cabria is seen as further evidence that the salute is a modern invention, used in the film to highlight the exotic nature of antiquity.[38]"
And finally...:
"...In the Star Trek episode "Mirror Mirror", the salute begins with the right fist being placed over the heart, as in a pectoral salute, and then the arm is stretched out (usually up) before the body, open palm down, as in a traditional Roman salute.[87] In the episode, Captain Kirk and members of his crew are transported to a parallel universe in which the United Federation of Planets has been replaced by an empire characterized by sadistic violence and torture, genocide, and unquestioning obedience to authority.[87] A modified Roman salute is commonly used in the British-American series Rome.[88] Here the salute avoids similarity to the Fascist salute, as the series seeks not to depict these Romans as stereotypical conquerors.[88] And so the salute is not the familiar straight arm salute but rather resembles a pectoral salute, with the right hand is placed over the heart and then extended to the front of the body.[88]"
Confused enough yet? Try reading the whole article.
So
MY personal conclusion is: We moderns got no idea if the Romans had ANY regularized form of saluting. All the variations that are sometimes called a "Roman" salute come from 18th century and later artists, and 19th/20th century filmmakers and political parties that needed a visually dramatic gesture.
It is unlikely that a mid-19th century Indiana Mormon militia would use this gesture, or ANY form for formal salute, unless adapting the saluting forms of the U.S. military/militias of the Eastern states. A more likely gesture of respect is probably the simple lifted open palm, showing an empty hand, and also commonly used as a gesture of blessing.
Your mileage may vary.
Graysons - the cultural history is North American. The salute is probably a variation of modern U.S. military practice.
A better question might be, "What does the RMN salute actually look like?" Despite the OPs assertion that it is similar to "modern American air force salute", is there actually text ev for that anywhere? Certainly the antecedents of the Manticorans and the RMN are more European, and diverse, so there is more scope for variation.
For that matter, the earliest version of any military service for the Manticore Binary System was the mercenary frigate squadron formed and dispatched by the Manticore Colony Trust of Zurich.
From Wikipedia again:
"Swiss Armed Forces[edit]
(snip) The salute is given like that of the British Navy with the palm pointing towards the shoulder."
dreamrider[/quote]
lyonheart wrote:aside from the doctrine that this life is a test, I'm curious why you think their background is Mormon in the first place when Mormons don't have cathedrals, paid dedicated clergy, or professional choirs in their services etc?
