The Alignment and Maya.

Hutch wrote:Apologies for the de-rail, but I was thinking about Tasmania and those ships out there again today.

We know from all the maps ever drawn that the Manticore-Beowulf wormhole is 475ly long, and that Beowulf is about 1 week's transit from Old Earth. So call it an additional 60 LY and we have 535ly from Old Earth to Manticore in hyper.

We know from texev in MoH (just looked it up), that it will take Filareta about 6 T-weeks to get from Tasmania to Manticore, and if we figure about 7Ly/day in hyper by 40 days = 280ly.

So if he is on a 'straight line' (which I know in 3-D space is not likely), then Tasmania is about 250LY from Old Earth, which puts it out on the edge of the Shell alright.

And based on that dratted 2-D map, it could be in striking distance of Haven, the Andies, or Talbott, depending on the precise location of The Mysterious Planet.....

Which may not matter at all, because if Honor and the GA find out about it (MoH left that a bit...murky), I suspect that fleet will be going away--one way or another.

Apologies for de-rail. We now return you to your normally scheduled thread.

Actually, Mission of Honor also states that Tasmania is "very little more than four hundred light-years" from Manticore, a bit more than the 280 you estimated. It also states that Tasmania is in the Shell. Manticore is 512 light-years from Sol. Together, this means that Tasmania is unfortunately not near the straight-line between Manticore and Sol, which makes it even harder to figure out where it is on the map.

SWM wrote:

Hutch wrote:Apologies for the de-rail, but I was thinking about Tasmania and those ships out there again today.

We know from all the maps ever drawn that the Manticore-Beowulf wormhole is 475ly long, and that Beowulf is about 1 week's transit from Old Earth. So call it an additional 60 LY and we have 535ly from Old Earth to Manticore in hyper.

We know from texev in MoH (just looked it up), that it will take Filareta about 6 T-weeks to get from Tasmania to Manticore, and if we figure about 7Ly/day in hyper by 40 days = 280ly.

So if he is on a 'straight line' (which I know in 3-D space is not likely), then Tasmania is about 250LY from Old Earth, which puts it out on the edge of the Shell alright.

And based on that dratted 2-D map, it could be in striking distance of Haven, the Andies, or Talbott, depending on the precise location of The Mysterious Planet.....

Which may not matter at all, because if Honor and the GA find out about it (MoH left that a bit...murky), I suspect that fleet will be going away--one way or another.

Apologies for de-rail. We now return you to your normally scheduled thread.

Actually, Mission of Honor also states that Tasmania is "very little more than four hundred light-years" from Manticore, a bit more than the 280 you estimated. It also states that Tasmania is in the Shell. Manticore is 512 light-years from Sol. Together, this means that Tasmania is unfortunately not near the straight-line between Manticore and Sol, which makes it even harder to figure out where it is on the map.

Yeah, I forgot about the 400LY reference. Which means that it is at some angle between Manticore and Earth...and what we don't know is where than angle is, to know if the Tasmanian Fleet could be directed at other targets (how close is it to Talbott, which Mike Henke has left about 25% of her fleet strength at).

We shall see, I suppose. I'll add it to the questions I hope to pose at Honorcon.

Hi Saber964,

Quite right.

Beowulf is 40 LY from Sol, but not directly in line with Manticore, which accounts for the 3 LY margin over the 512 direct.

The textev indicated Beowulf and Manticore knew Filareta was assembling his fleet at Tasmania, which is almost inline between Sol and Manticore, for some weeks if not a month or more, but it was too late to get there before he left, especially if they missed, NTM hyper not being the GA's best battlefield.

Although consider a battle between 2 grav waves permitting the GA missile dominance so that the GA could annihilate the whole fleet then pretend it was lost and destroyed in hyper; if there were any advantages to such a stratagem, regardless of how counter to the GA's professed honest character etc.

L

saber964 wrote:

Hutch wrote:*quote="SWM" quote="kenl511"]
I thought they were staging through the Maya Sector. Isn't Tasmania in the Maya Sector? And the follow on waves (I thought the figure being cited in ART was 600 SDs) were staging through Tasmania.*quote*
No, Tasmania is not in the Maya Sector. We don't know much about where Tasmania is. We have only two facts about Tasmania: it is a little over 400 light-years from Manticore, and it is in the Shell. The Maya Sector is in the Protectorates, not the Shell.

Apologies for the de-rail, but I was thinking about Tasmania and those ships out there again today.

We know from all the maps ever drawn that the Manticore-Beowulf wormhole is 475ly long, and that Beowulf is about 1 week's transit from Old Earth. So call it an additional 60 LY and we have 535ly from Old Earth to Manticore in hyper.

We know from texev in MoH (just looked it up), that it will take Filareta about 6 T-weeks to get from Tasmania to Manticore, and if we figure about 7Ly/day in hyper by 40 days = 280ly.

So if he is on a 'straight line' (which I know in 3-D space is not likely), then Tasmania is about 250LY from Old Earth, which puts it out on the edge of the Shell alright.

And based on that dratted 2-D map, it could be in striking distance of Haven, the Andies, or Talbott, depending on the precise location of The Mysterious Planet.....

Which may not matter at all, because if Honor and the GA find out about it (MoH left that a bit...murky), I suspect that fleet will be going away--one way or another.

Apologies for de-rail. We now return you to your normally scheduled thread.

Manticore is 512LY from Earth. Also IIRC The Pharris family lived there before immigrating to Sphinx.[/quote]

lyonheart wrote:Hi Saber964,

Quite right.

Beowulf is 40 LY from Sol, but not directly in line with Manticore, which accounts for the 3 LY margin over the 512 direct.

The textev indicated Beowulf and Manticore knew Filareta was assembling his fleet at Tasmania, which is almost inline between Sol and Manticore, for some weeks if not a month or more, but it was too late to get there before he left, especially if they missed, NTM hyper not being the GA's best battlefield.

The text does not say that Tasmania is almost inline between Sol and Manticore. What you are thinking of is probably the statement that Tasmania is considerably closer to Manticore than Sol is, which is true--400 ly vs. 512 ly.

SWM wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Saber964,

Quite right.

Beowulf is 40 LY from Sol, but not directly in line with Manticore, which accounts for the 3 LY margin over the 512 direct.

The textev indicated Beowulf and Manticore knew Filareta was assembling his fleet at Tasmania, which is almost inline between Sol and Manticore, for some weeks if not a month or more, but it was too late to get there before he left, especially if they missed, NTM hyper not being the GA's best battlefield.

The text does not say that Tasmania is almost inline between Sol and Manticore. What you are thinking of is probably the statement that Tasmania is considerably closer to Manticore than Sol is, which is true--400 ly vs. 512 ly.

OK, I did some geometry (albeit with a great deal of help with on-line) to figure out a triangle using the law of Cosines (which I probably encountered 45 years ago in High School and never before this day have ever used). We know two sides (Manticore-Sol = 512 and Manticore-Tasmania=400) and I assigned the angle described at Manticore as 49 degrees (because that was the example used in the tutorial--YMMV).

And doing the calulations gave a total of about 393LY for the Sol-Tasmania route.

Which does make one wonder if the ISLN could have assembled a fleet just as large in a month at the Sol system and sent it on to Manticore instead of spending a month getting messages and ships to save what amounts to be ~100LY by adding 400LY to the communications route.

Of course, I am not including 3-D geometry or other tools, like I said, it's been 45 years since H.S. Math and it's not a tool most cubicle-farm inhabitants use all that often, but it does seem to be an "interesting" puzzle.

At least to me. YMMV.

Hutch wrote:

SWM wrote:
OK, I did some geometry (albeit with a great deal of help with on-line) to figure out a triangle using the law of Cosines (which I probably encountered 45 years ago in High School and never before this day have ever used). We know two sides (Manticore-Sol = 512 and Manticore-Tasmania=400) and I assigned the angle described at Manticore as 49 degrees (because that was the example used in the tutorial--YMMV).

And doing the calulations gave a total of about 393LY for the Sol-Tasmania route.

Which does make one wonder if the ISLN could have assembled a fleet just as large in a month at the Sol system and sent it on to Manticore instead of spending a month getting messages and ships to save what amounts to be ~100LY by adding 400LY to the communications route.

Of course, I am not including 3-D geometry or other tools, like I said, it's been 45 years since H.S. Math and it's not a tool most cubicle-farm inhabitants use all that often, but it does seem to be an "interesting" puzzle.

At least to me. YMMV.

Well since any 3 point define a plane, Manticore, Tasmania, and Sol are co-planar and 2-D geometry works perfectly for figuring out distances between them.

Now where this breaks down is if you then want to figure distances from any of them to additional points those are likely not to be co-planer and you'd need info we don't have to account for their "height" above or below the plane defined above.


But probably more of a concern is that transit time in hyper isn't necessarily linked to linear distance; and fuel consumption almost never is.
If, as a random made up example, there was a big nasty rogue wave between Sol and Manticore you might have to drop into such a low hyper band to avoid it, or detour so far out of your way, that it might almost be faster to route by way of Tasmania than to proceed directly.

Or if the grav waves run that way, they make have concentrated at Tasmania to minimize non-grav wave distance which would use up fuel. Using much fuel would likely require rounding up lots of tankers to top off the fleet; very few systems can be expected have enough hydrogen on hand to fuel up hundreds of wallers.

Hutch wrote:OK, I did some geometry (albeit with a great deal of help with on-line) to figure out a triangle using the law of Cosines (which I probably encountered 45 years ago in High School and never before this day have ever used). We know two sides (Manticore-Sol = 512 and Manticore-Tasmania=400) and I assigned the angle described at Manticore as 49 degrees (because that was the example used in the tutorial--YMMV).

And doing the calulations gave a total of about 393LY for the Sol-Tasmania route.

Which does make one wonder if the ISLN could have assembled a fleet just as large in a month at the Sol system and sent it on to Manticore instead of spending a month getting messages and ships to save what amounts to be ~100LY by adding 400LY to the communications route.

Of course, I am not including 3-D geometry or other tools, like I said, it's been 45 years since H.S. Math and it's not a tool most cubicle-farm inhabitants use all that often, but it does seem to be an "interesting" puzzle.

At least to me. YMMV.

393 ly is too much. That's way outside of the Shell, and we know Tasmania is in the Shell. So the angle you arbitrarily chose was incorrect. It should be a much smaller angle.

The better way to estimate the possible range of distances of Tasmania to Sol is to see what how far the inner and outer edges of the Shell are from Sol.

The Maya sector includes/is in prox to the Torch wormhole. The backdoor to the MALingment's hiddy hole and the route for assult to the Haven sector. Certainly now it is of interest to the bad folks, if they have not payed too much heed to the area they will now. How that attention is focused is up to Mr. Weber, but a visit from some highpowered outlaw executives is certainly not out of the question. Probably carrot and stick song and dance