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Battle of Manticore - am I the only one?

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Re: Battle of Manticore - am I the only one?
Post by Commodore Oakius   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:49 am

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namelessfly wrote:Have I mentioned that Rob Pierre is my Havenite hero? He is the anti-Obama who transformed Haven from the type of welfare state that so many on this board long for into a more capitalist system that values education, productivity and self reliance.

100% agree!
Rob Pierre was the visionary who was lost in the work to get to the vision.
In the text it tells us that he never realised how hard it would be and that it was a rhino he couldn't control.
I think he had bad influences because he had to make alliances with people who just wanted power, not reform, cough Ransom Cough. Those people gave him the support he need to pull of the coup, but also created an imbalance in the power structure post coup. San Jus was as loyal as loyal can be and would have stuck by him to the end, and would have watched his back to the end also.

If Pierre had say 5 more years, a real chance to end the war, I think he would have been able to turn the economy of Haven around, and that was his goal.

The problem comes into the political structure, post reforms. Would he bring back the consitution? I didn't get the feeling he wanted the power for the sake of power, and feel he may have given it up once the reforms took hold, but what kind of government would he have left in his wake? A revitalized consitution? Permenant committee? or somthing even more different? Who would run it? Would the military have been brought back into trusted status?
These are the questions I'd like answered.
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Re: Battle of Manticore - am I the only one?
Post by Roguevictory   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:51 am

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exiledtoIA wrote:Actually Rogue, you are wrong from the Manties POV.
They KNOW that the Peeps have been lying about the diplomatic correspondence. Not think, but KNOW. Now for some undoubtly nefarious reason the Peeps have suddenly decided that they want peace, just AFTER they got handed their lower elevations. The Peeps KNOW that if Manticore gets their new equipment in general use the party is over.
So what do you do?
Why hey - Of course - ask for a cease fire while you negotiate for peace.
Hey it worked last time. Remember a gentleman named Oscar? Or Rob?
Stall for time while you try to come up with something that will give you a chance.

Then either because someone comes up with the idea or suddenly realizes " OH CRAP, we're going to be putting our leadership in the same room with furry lie detectors who can tell the universe that we are lying our pants off" now you have to come up with some way out of YOUR peace conference that doesn't tell the universe that Manticore was right all along and Haven can't be trusted.

How do you do that? HMMMMMMM?


[sarcasm] Right because if Haven wanted to disrupt the peace talks the only possible way they could do that was by trying to wipe out the leadership of a nation they had friendly relations with. [/sarcasm]

The three targets had exactly one common enemy but rather then consider the possibility that enemy might be the one behind the attacks Elizabeth jumped to the conclusion that a common enemy of two of the targets was behind it. She then came up with a theory giving that enemy reason to hit the third target and ran with it while refusing to consider any other possibilities.

The fact that the assassin of one of the targets was the Haven ambassador's limo driver should have sent up red flags in her mind as well. If Haven can program people to be assassins why would they use someone linked to their ambassador was a hitman?
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Re: Battle of Manticore - am I the only one?
Post by Commodore Oakius   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:05 pm

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Roguevictory wrote:[sarcasm] Right because if Haven wanted to disrupt the peace talks the only possible way they could do that was by trying to wipe out the leadership of a nation they had friendly relations with. [/sarcasm]

The three targets had exactly one common enemy but rather then consider the possibility that enemy might be the one behind the attacks Elizabeth jumped to the conclusion that a common enemy of two of the targets was behind it. She then came up with a theory giving that enemy reason to hit the third target and ran with it while refusing to consider any other possibilities.

The fact that the assassin of one of the targets was the Haven ambassador's limo driver should have sent up red flags in her mind as well. If Haven can program people to be assassins why would they use someone linked to their ambassador was a hitman?


Actually, Queen Berry could be considered a legit target considering her Maticoran origins however...
The reation the of Elizabeth was exactly what the Mesan wanted, an illogical jump to the wrong conclusion.

As for the common enemy, don't forget, no one in Manticore or Haven had any clue the Alignment existed. Mesa wasn't on the radar as a blip, let alone enough of a threat to be considered. Add in the fact that the most logical people to kill Honor is Haven, and Mesa, or any other potential enemies, don't really come to the forefront of the debate.
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Re: Battle of Manticore - am I the only one?
Post by n7axw   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 4:27 pm

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Commodore Oakius wrote:
Roguevictory wrote:[sarcasm] Right because if Haven wanted to disrupt the peace talks the only possible way they could do that was by trying to wipe out the leadership of a nation they had friendly relations with. [/sarcasm]

The three targets had exactly one common enemy but rather then consider the possibility that enemy might be the one behind the attacks Elizabeth jumped to the conclusion that a common enemy of two of the targets was behind it. She then came up with a theory giving that enemy reason to hit the third target and ran with it while refusing to consider any other possibilities.

The fact that the assassin of one of the targets was the Haven ambassador's limo driver should have sent up red flags in her mind as well. If Haven can program people to be assassins why would they use someone linked to their ambassador was a hitman?


Actually, Queen Berry could be considered a legit target considering her Maticoran origins however...
The reation the of Elizabeth was exactly what the Mesan wanted, an illogical jump to the wrong conclusion.

As for the common enemy, don't forget, no one in Manticore or Haven had any clue the Alignment existed. Mesa wasn't on the radar as a blip, let alone enough of a threat to be considered. Add in the fact that the most logical people to kill Honor is Haven, and Mesa, or any other potential enemies, don't really come to the forefront of the debate.



Ahh, actually starting with Monica, Mesa was blipping all over the place, with Talbot Quadrant and 10th Fleet, with ONI, with Honor and Hamish, with Cachat and Zilwicki... Given Elizabeth's experience, how she reacted to the attack on Torch is comprensible. But it was her biggest mistake and it cost a lot of lives.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Battle of Manticore - am I the only one?
Post by JohnS   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:40 pm

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Roguevictory wrote:The fact that the assassin of one of the targets was the Haven ambassador's limo driver should have sent up red flags in her mind as well. If Haven can program people to be assassins why would they use someone linked to their ambassador was a hitman?


Yeah, that bothered me a lot. Having that person be the assassin should have screamed, "frame job". I'm not saying that Manticore's analysts should have automatically concluded that it was a frame, but there was certainly enough evidence of Mesan activity aimed at Manticore that the possibility of a frame should have been considered, particularly when the attempt on Queen Berry made no sense from a Havenite perspective.
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Re: Battle of Manticore - am I the only one?
Post by Roguevictory   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 5:57 pm

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Commodore Oakius wrote:
Roguevictory wrote:[sarcasm] Right because if Haven wanted to disrupt the peace talks the only possible way they could do that was by trying to wipe out the leadership of a nation they had friendly relations with. [/sarcasm]

The three targets had exactly one common enemy but rather then consider the possibility that enemy might be the one behind the attacks Elizabeth jumped to the conclusion that a common enemy of two of the targets was behind it. She then came up with a theory giving that enemy reason to hit the third target and ran with it while refusing to consider any other possibilities.

The fact that the assassin of one of the targets was the Haven ambassador's limo driver should have sent up red flags in her mind as well. If Haven can program people to be assassins why would they use someone linked to their ambassador was a hitman?


Actually, Queen Berry could be considered a legit target considering her Maticoran origins however...
The reation the of Elizabeth was exactly what the Mesan wanted, an illogical jump to the wrong conclusion.

As for the common enemy, don't forget, no one in Manticore or Haven had any clue the Alignment existed. Mesa wasn't on the radar as a blip, let alone enough of a threat to be considered. Add in the fact that the most logical people to kill Honor is Haven, and Mesa, or any other potential enemies, don't really come to the forefront of the debate.


They may not have known about the Alignment but they definitely knew that all three targets had hurt Manpower badly so the idea of Manpower being out for revenge should have crossed Elizabeth's mind or the mind of someone on her staff but if it did she completely ignored the possibility.
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Re: Battle of Manticore - am I the only one?
Post by JohnS   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:14 pm

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roseandheather wrote:But what grew out of the ashes is the Grand Alliance, and I cannot, I will not, be sorry for that. Fire kills, but it is also the crucible of rebirth. And in this fire, both Manticore and my Haven were reborn. Javier Giscard and millions of others paid the ultimate price for that rebirth - but I cannot imagine that they would not do it all over again, and gladly, to see Manticore and Haven side by side at last.


I know, I know. But... maybe I just like both sides too much to want them to fight each other. You know that if the Alignment never existed, the League would have attacked the Haven sector sooner or later, if only because an uncorrupted Haven serves as too pointed an example of Solarian corruption. Imagine a multi-system industrial powerhouse and a one-system economic powerhouse, with very different political systems, forced to work together against the League. With all the same characters, natch.

Screw flying cars. I want a trans-temporal conveyer so I can read the stories where my favorite authors took paths B, C, and D. (Though I'd better hope one of those timelines invented anti-agathics. There never is enough time to read... :) )
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Re: Battle of Manticore - am I the only one?
Post by Amaroq   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:59 pm

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n7axw wrote:
Ahh, actually starting with Monica, Mesa was blipping all over the place, with Talbot Quadrant and 10th Fleet, with ONI, with Honor and Hamish, with Cachat and Zilwicki... Given Elizabeth's experience, how she reacted to the attack on Torch is comprensible. But it was her biggest mistake and it cost a lot of lives.

Don


No question that Elizabeth overreacted and reached for a "Haven-is-to-blame" scenario for the Torch attack. One thing I think about is the historical context that Elizabeth is operating under. Putting aside her personal hatred of Haven for a moment (which did have a large impact on her decision), in her entire lifetime and for a good portion of time before that Haven has been this all-conquering all-consuming nation that was steadily looming on the horizon. Unfortunately, with that history, Haven is going to take some time to not only remove that reputation but replace it with the better one that Eloise and Company are trying to build. Without the "inside" look into Eloise's character and motivations that we as readers have, all Manticore and Elizabeth can do is operate under what they've traditionally known about Haven. A few years of honest governance is not going to erase decades of mistrust.

I remember Honor mentioning that she never expected anything like what happened from Theisman (who she had a fairly good grasp of character-wise) but admitting that she knew nothing about what Prtichart was really like and that that could explain a great deal about the goings-on.
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*
In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Goodwill.
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Re: Battle of Manticore - am I the only one?
Post by Amaroq   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:16 pm

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JohnS wrote:
Roguevictory wrote:The fact that the assassin of one of the targets was the Haven ambassador's limo driver should have sent up red flags in her mind as well. If Haven can program people to be assassins why would they use someone linked to their ambassador was a hitman?


Yeah, that bothered me a lot. Having that person be the assassin should have screamed, "frame job". I'm not saying that Manticore's analysts should have automatically concluded that it was a frame, but there was certainly enough evidence of Mesan activity aimed at Manticore that the possibility of a frame should have been considered, particularly when the attempt on Queen Berry made no sense from a Havenite perspective.


There's a whole discussion on this in AAC.

"According to the last report ONI shared with the Foreign Office," Langtry said, "we still don't have a clue how they did whatever they did to Lieutenant Meares. There are all sorts of theories going around, but nothing solid. Still, at least one of them suggests that the lieutenant wasn't chosen just for his proximity to Duchess Harrington, but also because there was something unique about him. Possibly something in his medical or genetic background made him more vulnerable to whatever technique they're using. Is it possible that this fellow was the closest person they could lay hands on that fit whatever medical profile they need?"

"Possible, I suppose, Mr. Secretary," Shemais said. "And they did—or, at least, obviously thought they'd managed to—erase the direct financial connection between him and them. If it was a case of their needing someone with his specific profile, at least they went to a lot of effort to sanitize him. But to use their own ambassador's driver?" She shook her head. "Even granted that their hacker could eliminate the record of direct clandestine payments, the connection between him and their ambassador had to jump out and hit any investigator squarely between the eyes."

"Could they have counted on that?" Grantville wondered aloud. Everyone looked at him, and he shrugged. "If there's something to Tony's suggestion that this man may have had some quality they needed if they were going to use him the way they used Lieutenant Meares, then maybe they decided to make the best of a bad bargain. If they had to use him, maybe they figured we'd be asking ourselves exactly these questions."

"A double-blind, you mean, Prime Minister?" Shemais said thoughtfully. "You're suggesting that they want us to think the connection is so obvious no halfway competent covert operations planner would go near it with a three-meter pole?"

"Something like that," Grantville agreed.

"I suppose it's remotely possible." Shemais frowned. "I don't say I think it's likely, though. But the bottom line is that either they didn't do it, and someone's gone to enormous lengths to convince us they did, or else they deliberately set it up this way to point a too obvious finger at themselves."

"Why would they do that, Ellen?" Elizabeth asked skeptically.

"As the Prime Minister already suggested, Your Majesty, making the best of a bad bargain. If there was some reason they had to use this particular man to pull the trigger, then they may have hoped the surface connection between them and him would be so blatant that they could scream they were being framed by a third-party. Which," she admitted, almost against her will, "I personally might have been inclined to place some credence in if it weren't for the history of payments and the fact that they went to such obvious pains to erase that history. Unfortunately for them, there was a previous financial relationship, plus the fact that, according to the bank investigators and the Solly police, they doctored the bank records at least a week before the assassination. Someone else might have found out that the man was on their payroll, which could have made him even more attractive from the prospect of framing them, but altering the records when they did indicates that they knew this was coming and wanted to be certain they'd cut the obvious linkage well ahead of time."

"So you think it was them, Colonel?" Langtry asked.

"I don't know what I think, Mr. Secretary. Not yet," the colonel said frankly. "I'd have to say there's a lot of circumstantial evidence indicating they did do it—as I say, the timing on the computer hack strongly suggests that they knew it was coming. But the tradecraft on this, assuming it was them, isn't just bad, it's atrocious. It's not just unprofessional, it's clumsy, especially for someone with as much institutional experience setting up assassinations as the old People's Republic. I suppose it's possible Pritchart's purge of the old régime's security services cost them some expertise, but still . . . ."

"But if we're going to entertain the possibility that it wasn't them, who else could have wanted Jim dead?" Grantville asked.

"I can't answer that one, Prime Minister," Shemais admitted. "There could be any number of other people who might have had an interest in killing him. But an analyst can get herself into a lot of trouble by wandering off into too much speculation based on too little hard data, and there are two salient points which stand out to me. First, the timing. It could simply be a coincidence, but I'm naturally suspicious of coincidences, and while we're in the middle of a war with another star nation, the reasons that nation might want one of our ambassadors dead go to the head of my own queue. And second, this entire affair certainly does sound very similar to the attempt on Duchess Harrington's life. In that case, unlike this one, there's not much question about why the Peeps wanted her dead, but it's the similarity of technique that strikes me so strongly. When we think about who else could have wanted Admiral Webster dead, we also have to think about who would have the resources and technical capability to put his assassination together this way. From what happened in Duchess Harrington's case, it seems evident that the Peeps have it, but we don't have any evidence that anyone else does. And if it wasn't them, someone went to an awful lot of trouble to convince us it was."



They bring up the points you did about it possibly being a frame-job but then bring up counter-points that are half-way reasonable. All this double-think is exactly what Mesa wanted. Even if their suspicions had leaned toward Mesa as the origin of the nanotech used on the driver and Tim Meares they might think that Haven bought the tech from Mesa to use.

The actual wildcard is Honor's assassination attempt. It is the one that is throwing their analyses off a bit. There are many reasons for Haven to want Honor dead and Shemais comments on the similarity of technique between Honor's attack and the one on Webster. Because they are so firmly focused on Haven as being behind the attack on Honor and the nanotech used is the same in both cases and the only people that they know have that nanotech are the Havenites the evidence linking Haven to the Webster attack jumps out.

They were correct in assuming that the attacks on Honor and Webster were carried out by the same nation due to the nanotech's use in both cases but because they had literally no idea that Mesa would attack Honor like that it left them with no option but to conclude that Haven was to blame for both attacks. Again, they don't have the insight we do into the actual provenance of the nanotech nor its implementation.
*~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~*
In War: Resolution. In Defeat: Defiance. In Victory: Magnanimity. In Peace: Goodwill.
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Re: Battle of Manticore - am I the only one?
Post by exiledtoIA   » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:55 pm

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You and I ( for that matter all of us in this thread ) have a huge advantage over everyone in the books.
We know what both sides are doing and thinking.
Elizabeth does not have that advantage.
As for her distrust of Haven,
SARCASM mode enabled:
You are right she should trust the people who murdered her father, her Prime Minister,TRIED to murder her, apparently tried to murder her friend, apparently murdered her ambassador to the Sollies, and oh yes shot their way into power back home.
Sarcasm mode disengaged.

One question:
Who else was supposed to be in the room with Queen Berry?
I'll give you a hint, it was the niece of one of the people going to the peace conference on Torch.
With her past history of having relatives murdered by Haven all of the sudden she is supposed to realize
" Oh wow, They really have changed, the fact that their President was a terrorist before her SECWAR and CNO executed the former government of Haven proves that beyond a doubt."



[sarcasm] Right because if Haven wanted to disrupt the peace talks the only possible way they could do that was by trying to wipe out the leadership of a nation they had friendly relations with. [/sarcasm]

The three targets had exactly one common enemy but rather then consider the possibility that enemy might be the one behind the attacks Elizabeth jumped to the conclusion that a common enemy of two of the targets was behind it. She then came up with a theory giving that enemy reason to hit the third target and ran with it while refusing to consider any other possibilities.

The fact that the assassin of one of the targets was the Haven ambassador's limo driver should have sent up red flags in her mind as well. If Haven can program people to be assassins why would they use someone linked to their ambassador was a hitman?[/quote]
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