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new/old dead horse, futher beating requested

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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by KNick   » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:08 pm

KNick
Admiral

Posts: 2142
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:38 am
Location: Billings, MT, USA

Daryl wrote:I was going to start a campaign to stop bestiality, necrophilia, and sadism but was told I'd just be beating a dead horse.
<<SNIP>>
There are many real world examples of how gifting sophisticated military technology to an undeveloped nation has ended with no functionality in a short time. Without an appropriate industrial base and military support ethos, stuff turns into junk rapidly.


I thought one of the purposes of the Guard was to teach just that ethos. IMPO, it does not matter if the support is for captured SLN equipment, RMN equipment or a design from a company in the Quadrant. Any of these will help build that ethos. At the moment, Mike needs ground support soonest. Anything that gets that support there is a plus. Even if it means sending some units there with the captured equipment. It can always be replaced as the Quadrant supply situation stabilizes and the decisions are made on how to equip the remainder of the Guard.
_


Try to take a fisherman's fish and you will be tomorrows bait!!!
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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by Mitchell, Esq.   » Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:38 pm

Mitchell, Esq.
Commodore

Posts: 806
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:14 pm

lelder5 wrote:(1) Small arms: Somewhere around 1/2 to 3/4 of a million marines have been captured with all their hardware. This includes weaponds, probably vehicles, armor (powered and unpowered), drop capabillity (nearspace and atmo). The Alliance will have little need to manufacture these things but they need to be checked out and at least for the armor refited.



Manticore is very firearm friendly, so the crown likely got bids on the whole lot before it was captured.

CDNN investments is a US company that deals in surplus firearms from police departments who are selling old shotguns and pistols for newer stuff. They refurbish them or sell them as is, for below retail.

Manticore likely has the same thing.

"Solarian pulse rifle. Very clean. Came off the invasion fleet (SLNS Indomitable Marine Unit ...). Integrated red dot, adjustable stock, 200 round capacity. Retail price $2,300 - All serviceable rifles for Royal Manticorian Rifle League & Hunting. Service Grade weapons start at $499.99 ($599.99 for hand select rifles for better finish/$650 for new issue) - SHIPPING INCLUDED"

Such a deal.

I bought 2...
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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by SpaceManSpiff   » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:27 pm

SpaceManSpiff
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:25 pm

I wonder how much it costs to build a fusion plant. And how long.
Are Manty and Peep plants better?
They've captured hundreds of them.....
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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by SpaceManSpiff   » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:28 pm

SpaceManSpiff
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:25 pm

Mitchell, Esq. wrote:
lelder5 wrote:(1) Small arms: Somewhere around 1/2 to 3/4 of a million marines have been captured with all their hardware. This includes weaponds, probably vehicles, armor (powered and unpowered), drop capabillity (nearspace and atmo). The Alliance will have little need to manufacture these things but they need to be checked out and at least for the armor refited.



Manticore is very firearm friendly, so the crown likely got bids on the whole lot before it was captured.

CDNN investments is a US company that deals in surplus firearms from police departments who are selling old shotguns and pistols for newer stuff. They refurbish them or sell them as is, for below retail.

Manticore likely has the same thing.

"Solarian pulse rifle. Very clean. Came off the invasion fleet (SLNS Indomitable Marine Unit ...). Integrated red dot, adjustable stock, 200 round capacity. Retail price $2,300 - All serviceable rifles for Royal Manticorian Rifle League & Hunting. Service Grade weapons start at $499.99 ($599.99 for hand select rifles for better finish/$650 for new issue) - SHIPPING INCLUDED"

Such a deal.

I bought 2...

Do the Manties have a Civilian Marksmanship Program?
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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:58 pm

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi KNick,

Quite right, as usual. :D

I've run the numbers several times, assuming the SLN crews were a third marines like the RMN used to be, the total SL marines at Spindle would be over 128,382, a third having battle armor, the rest skin etc.

We don't know how big the TQG planetary police and military's are, but 10-12 million for 16 systems of 24-60 billion people isn't too many, so despite their tech being obsolete by the SEM's standard, most if not all could provide trained personnel that would fit the existing marine suits etc once the measurements had been transmitted to all TQ members, being only ~1% of their combined trained military before they get swamped by all the volunteers.

So Mike's 'ground reinforcements' might get there sooner than she thinks, once the suits are all checked out, with plenty of experienced police as cadre, besides those already similarly equipped.

Even using CoG's smaller Mesan military numbers, the combined TQG potential figures before adding the SLN windfall are relatively huge, so that sending 1-2% quickly to Meyers and the Madras sector, then following Mike to Mobius and Mesa could happen faster than we may have been led to believe.

Which would be great of course, but good things do happen to those who boldly do their duty, at least sometimes. ;)

L


KNick wrote:
Daryl wrote:I was going to start a campaign to stop bestiality, necrophilia, and sadism but was told I'd just be beating a dead horse.
<<SNIP>>
There are many real world examples of how gifting sophisticated military technology to an undeveloped nation has ended with no functionality in a short time. Without an appropriate industrial base and military support ethos, stuff turns into junk rapidly.


I thought one of the purposes of the Guard was to teach just that ethos. IMPO, it does not matter if the support is for captured SLN equipment, RMN equipment or a design from a company in the Quadrant. Any of these will help build that ethos. At the moment, Mike needs ground support soonest. Anything that gets that support there is a plus. Even if it means sending some units there with the captured equipment. It can always be replaced as the Quadrant supply situation stabilizes and the decisions are made on how to equip the remainder of the Guard.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by drothgery   » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:22 pm

drothgery
Admiral

Posts: 2025
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Location: San Diego, CA, USA

SpaceManSpiff wrote:I wonder how much it costs to build a fusion plant. And how long.
Are Manty and Peep plants better?
They've captured hundreds of them.....
Less than it costs to rip one out of an SD. Next question?
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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:02 pm

Jonathan_S
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Posts: 8800
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

SpaceManSpiff wrote:I wonder how much it costs to build a fusion plant. And how long.
Are Manty and Peep plants better?
They've captured hundreds of them.....

Pretty sure drothgery is right; it probably costs less to build a new fusion plant than it does to safely extract one buried behind warship armor.

You've got to get the plant, it's supporting computers, fuel feed system, etc. out though access paths cut through some of toughest armor known to man; all without damaging anything.
Then inspect it all and certify it all as safe for use. (Don't forget the need to provide at least some training / retraining in the differences in operating and maintaining the Solarian designs compared to your normal standardized plants)

Oh, and hopefully you captures the operator and maintenance manuals (which should be completely updated with any idiosyncrasies of using or repairing these things; but they probably don't have all that; documentation always seems to lag actual experience)
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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:35 pm

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi Daryl,

While current experience is obvious, just how backward is the whole TQ, when several, possibly the majority of member systems had their own navies including heavy cruisers?

Given how far Grayson had to go, being a century or two out of date yet matching the RMN in a few short years, I expect the TQ has been closing the gap faster than some have allowed, granted some being far ahead of others.

I doubt the 48 SD's being so easily divided by the 16 member systems is by chance, and having 3 in each system would help Henri Krietzmann among other quadrant and system leaders sleep at night having 3 such nominally fierce scarecrows in each system.

While the FF ships [16 BC's, 12 CA's, 23 CL's, 18 DD's] ought be added to the local forces [a 50% increase in hyper units?], there's also the possibility of using them or the FF captured with Filaretta [32 BC's, 30 CL's, 48 DD's] as 'Trojan horses' possibly manned jointly by all GA navies with a few improvements to fire control [one F/C channel per pod], communications [ ghost rider RD's and FTL.comms via a possibly towed or tractored Hermes buoys] and pods, to check out all the various protectorates suspected of having "Firebrand" etc types visits, then taking whatever action might be needed immediately, while an escorted 'newsie' might go 'report' quickly.

Lacoon 2 seems to demand some sort of local intel survey, possibly using SLN db and 'newsie ships' transponders picked up by MMM freighters over the years besides those picked up in Spindle and the SKM that the RMN could use, including the up to date records aboard the captured SLN ships and all those of the newsies arriving to check on Crandall and Filaretta etc.

So the technique might not be that strange or out of the box to the Lacoon 2 planners as some might suppose, and thus available when Pat Givens has to find out quickly which protectorates are probably expecting RMN help soon.

The combined total of 179 ex-FF ships is probably more than 20% of the protectorates, enough to quickly cover the suspected ones even in pairs etc, if the GA weren't to use other ships including 'neutral' freighters for the survey.

After that, there's the shells to be sampled, along with Beowulf's neighbors, then the rest of the core...

So these ex-FF could prove pretty useful too. ;)

L


Daryl wrote:I was going to start a campaign to stop bestiality, necrophilia, and sadism but was told I'd just be beating a dead horse.

On a marginally more serious note I believe that part of the reason this topic won't die is that if you had just one of the Solarian SDs here and now you would be king of the world. People can't accept that in the Honorverse they are just useless white elephants, despite RFC patiently explaining it over and over.
There are many real world examples of how gifting sophisticated military technology to an undeveloped nation has ended with no functionality in a short time. Without an appropriate industrial base and military support ethos, stuff turns into junk rapidly.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
Top
Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by n7axw   » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:18 pm

n7axw
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Posts: 5997
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Location: Viborg, SD

drothgery wrote:
SpaceManSpiff wrote:I wonder how much it costs to build a fusion plant. And how long.
Are Manty and Peep plants better?
They've captured hundreds of them.....
Less than it costs to rip one out of an SD. Next question?


I'm not really sure, but when the wedges are down, I am of the impression that there is no armor for the floors and roofs. Could it be that this would make the process of extracting the fusion plants a bit less difficult than we have been assuming?

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: new/old dead horse, futher beating requested
Post by kzt   » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:30 pm

kzt
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Posts: 11360
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Location: Albuquerque, NM

lyonheart wrote:While current experience is obvious, just how backward is the whole TQ, when several, possibly the majority of member systems had their own navies including heavy cruisers?

The best they had, Rembrandt IIRC, had some ability to build and operate cruiser scale ships, but I'm not at all sure that any of them had CAs, much less most.
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