Reparations

As far as reparations are concerned, beyond ensuring that the SL doesn't somehow become a future threat, I think the Star Empire would be satisfied with just the SL admitting culpability. It's just too hard to see beyond that. For the SL to openly admit to the Universe at large its wrong, would be priceless to Manticore; as it would prove to be fundamental in providing Elizabeth with a political fulcrum in her addendum foreign policy of breaking up — by recruiting, any system polities. And by "recruiting," is not necessarily meant "to join the Empire," as to leave the League.

A few concerns ...

Weird Harold wrote:
<snip>
I'm pretty sure that Manticore won't negotiate very hard until the SLN is significantly reduced in size; What Honor characterized as "too small to be a threat."

I certainly understand this line of thinking, but what size of a juggernaut can be considered "too small?" With the SL there are intangibles like loyalty, pride, identity ... and R&D capability. Manticore has shown what a small, one system polity can do. Of course, Manticore enjoyed the financial support of the junctions and a broken SL wouldn't have the same financial resources. Yet if it retains its R&D capability, then the head isn't dead and the heart can be coaxed.

What of the enormous ships owned by the SL? Will Manticore demand destruction of the fleet? That may create other problems such as a SL which may not be able to protect itself from other systems that may later rise up and seek retribution from a former SL that has wronged them. And who will replace the SL by becoming the new Sheriff of the Realm? Anarchy may abound and the entire SL space could become a new haven for pirates.

What "parts" of the SL are the most critical systems? Where does the Sol system fit in that scheme of importance? Is the Sol system just of political importance, or does it constitute the bulk of R&D? What about resources such as asteroids, mining, etc? It seems that it would be easier to speculate if these and similar questions are first answered, and there is a more detailed breakdown of R&D, asteroid extraction and mining, by system.

Moreover, if the SL doesn't retain its significant R&D and manufacturing capability, who will?

Just trying to understand the tangled web to unweave.

The only form of reparations I could see (beyond specific cases in the lead up to war in the Quadrant) would be "You're going to pay us to build SDFs for the systems we liberated from the OFS because your ships aren't good enough to defend them."

cthia wrote:I certainly understand this line of thinking, but what size of a juggernaut can be considered "too small?" With the SL there are intangibles like loyalty, pride, identity ... and R&D capability. Manticore has shown what a small, one system polity can do. Of course, Manticore enjoyed the financial support of the junctions and a broken SL wouldn't have the same financial resources. Yet if it retains its R&D capability, then the head isn't dead and the heart can be coaxed.

That is pretty much a question that has to be answered by the characters based on how much they are concerned about revanchism.

IIRC, Honor characterized potential problems as systems that still "self-identify as solarian league."

cthia wrote:...
Moreover, if the SL doesn't retain its significant R&D and manufacturing capability, who will?

The objective of breaking the SL into numerous successor states recognizes that there is no singular "R&D establishment" in the SL. Each bit or piece of R&D capability would go to the successor state where that bit or piece resides.

The troublesome R&D capabilities belong to Transstellars like Technodyne Industries of Yildin which is going to be a primary target of the Mesa and MAlign campaigns as well as being targeted as a prime SLN supplier. Other transstellars that are SLN contractors can expect destruction of known military R&D sites and economic warfare as necessary to prevent them from doing business with the League.

One of the problems foreseen for a conventional victory without breaking the League apart is the eventual establishment of a "Bolthole" style R&D/shipyard facility.

Starsaber wrote:The only form of reparations I could see (beyond specific cases in the lead up to war in the Quadrant) would be "You're going to pay us to build SDFs for the systems we liberated from the OFS because your ships aren't good enough to defend them."

If there is no SL left, it's going to be impossible to insist upon that stipulation. You can't get blood from a rock after all. And if the meaning of liberation means take by force from the OFS, that will only be grinding salt in the wound. Especially since there would be a Solarian currency anymore. In this case think of the treaty that ended WWI. Requiring the remnant SL states to fund the building of SDFs for the 'freed' systems would -not- be taken well by the former SL systems at all.

The objective of breaking the SL into numerous successor states recognizes that there is no singular "R&D establishment" in the SL. Each bit or piece of R&D capability would go to the successor state where that bit or piece resides.

Cthia makes a good point. There is no pre-determined size of what would be acceptable other than something that is too small to threaten Manticore. And that's a damned vague term. At some point the SEM is going to have to decide that they will have to take what they can get. Do I expect the SL to completely break up? No. I expect there to be several parts that do retain cohesion and do want to remain together, albetit under a different Solarian League (and likely under a more effective constitution). If large sections don;t want to break up and refuse to even while under GA attack, will the GA be forced to occupy those systems and use heavy blunt force to force those polities to break up. If those successor states do offer up terms I outlined before, so you think Manticore woudl reject them even when it's clear to anyone that NO Solarian League system or systems can stand yup to Manticore and the GA militarily. At this point, Manticore has to balance their need to protect themselves, against the public perception of destroying a target(s) that are 1; not capable of fighting them and 2; willing to offer up good terms of a cease fire/surrender. If Manticore pressed any attack after that was made known, they would lose a hell of a lot of good will they gained because the fight is so unbalanced. At some point, they might have to accept larger successor states than they might want and just hope to use diplomacy and economic incentives to make them not enemies. Not necessarily allies, but neutral at the least. Remember beating the crap out of someone who has surrendered is very bad form.

As for the R&D angle, they will have to accept that R&D is being done and live with it. They can't stop it. The scientists of the various R&D facilities or the naval officers running them might take the data to a central location so there's a fair amount of R&D data that could be of us by a SL successor state.

I'm thinking enough of Harrington's and the MAlign's plan will work. Mostly. The SL is large enough there should be unforeseen glitches happen in their plans, so it doesn't go exactly as planned.

Ten core systems could present a significant threat. That's 50-300 billion people with a GSP 5-15 times larger then manticore.

Zakharra wrote: Especially since there would be a Solarian currency anymore.

Did you leave out a word?

Zakharra wrote:Cthia makes a good point. There is no pre-determined size of what would be acceptable other than something that is too small to threaten Manticore. And that's a damned vague term.

It is a "vague term" because the conditions it describes are extremely context sensitive. A hundred systems like Nuncio isn't going to be a threat in the foreseeable future. Two or three aggressive Core Worlds is a threat in any future.

Hi Cthia,

Given the average SL 'citizen' doesn't identify himself as a SL but of his own immediate system, the idea of a large SL polity surviving the coming chaos is a bit of a stretch when there are so darn few ready and willing to defend it, as Ottweiler and "Firebrand" noted back in SFtS.

The GA and the SEM is going to want a lot more than the SL just admitting its guilty of greed and stupidity.

From their own comments and thoughts, I don't see any of the leaders of the GA wanting the protectorates and the OFS to continue, or a number of other SL practices and policies that are intrinsically bound to the SL that makes it so susceptible to being so easily corrupted and dangerously manipulated by unelected bureaucrats as Honor and Tom both told Filaretta, which I'm sure was part of what was transmitted to Old Chicago.

Getting rid of the protectorates, who by the way, might [should] demand reparations for all their stolen wealth besides all the in-system confiscation of the local transtellar's properties, which the the SL is certainly culpable for, and quite a pretty penny it'd be too after up to 500 years of exploitation; and the OFS as their facilitators and bullies on behalf of the SL, remember the OFS protectorate fees were ~30% of pre-war SL income; is going to be a basic non-negotiable GA demand.

They've already set the table that they won't permit even the appearance of condoning it any more, and since the SL is no longer strong enough to get away with it, they'll have to accept it [which then brings up their treatment of the shells etc], although at the snail pace the SL moves, the protectorates might all be gone before they get around to conceding the point.

This is all kinda moot since the mandarins know they're already losing not just the protectorates but the shells as well.

If the attack on Beowulf does go through, it provides the GA the hunting license to destroy Battle Fleet and all of its reserve, thus leaving 2/3 of the ex-SL members with nothing but LAC's to defend themselves; at that point I don't see them sticking with some old dinosaur that can no longer protect them.

This may leave the SL 'old league', ie what's within ~98 LY of Sol, possibly as many as 295 systems, but we already have textev that others besides Beowulf are thinking of leaving for their own good reasons, before getting into what the 2/3 helpless systems even there could do or who they'd turn to.

Personally, I think many if not almost all would link up with the GA by treaty, if they haven't irritated them too much, because the GA will have a pretty good track record by then of keeping their word, NTM no one else being able to stop them.

Then there's paying the ex-protectorates back with interest; I don't see any decent court not awarding the protectorates damages plus interest.

Given how populous and wealthy the SL is and will continue to be, the respective systems ought to easily be able to pay it; possibly justifying it to their citizens as a new form of foreign aid.

L

cthia wrote:As far as reparations are concerned, beyond ensuring that the SL doesn't somehow become a future threat, I think the Star Empire would be satisfied with just the SL admitting culpability. It's just too hard to see beyond that. For the SL to openly admit to the Universe at large its wrong, would be priceless to Manticore; as it would prove to be fundamental in providing Elizabeth with a political fulcrum in her addendum foreign policy of breaking up — by recruiting, any system polities. And by "recruiting," is not necessarily meant "to join the Empire," as to leave the League.

A few concerns ...

Weird Harold wrote:
<snip>
I'm pretty sure that Manticore won't negotiate very hard until the SLN is significantly reduced in size; What Honor characterized as "too small to be a threat."

I certainly understand this line of thinking, but what size of a juggernaut can be considered "too small?" With the SL there are intangibles like loyalty, pride, identity ... and R&D capability. Manticore has shown what a small, one system polity can do. Of course, Manticore enjoyed the financial support of the junctions and a broken SL wouldn't have the same financial resources. Yet if it retains its R&D capability, then the head isn't dead and the heart can be coaxed.

What of the enormous ships owned by the SL? Will Manticore demand destruction of the fleet? That may create other problems such as a SL which may not be able to protect itself from other systems that may later rise up and seek retribution from a former SL that has wronged them. And who will replace the SL by becoming the new Sheriff of the Realm? Anarchy may abound and the entire SL space could become a new haven for pirates.

What "parts" of the SL are the most critical systems? Where does the Sol system fit in that scheme of importance? Is the Sol system just of political importance, or does it constitute the bulk of R&D? What about resources such as asteroids, mining, etc? It seems that it would be easier to speculate if these and similar questions are first answered, and there is a more detailed breakdown of R&D, asteroid extraction and mining, by system.

Moreover, if the SL doesn't retain its significant R&D and manufacturing capability, who will?

Just trying to understand the tangled web to unweave.

I think we need to differentiate here:

- SL Federal Gouvernment (Navy, OFS, rest of the bureaucracy): The target of the war is that this ceases to exist. Obviously, there may be remnants (Barregos is OFS and Roszak is Frontier Fleet, so in a way, Maya might become a remnant of the SL executive), but either none that are successors, or successors that aren't be in any state to pay reparations.

-Member states/successor states: Manticore cannot make demands on these, because they'd risk to ferment dislike, even unify successors and grow an enemy for the future. This also means that the influence on the size of successor states is limited to diplomacy - but the way I read existing textev, there are no large coalitions within the SL. Some multi-system-entities might form, but the only larger one would be the Alignment. Plus, I don't think it's really necessary for the successors to be less powerfull than Manticore, having several powerful successors would be ok, since it would allow to form coalitions aganst a potencial agressor.

-Transtellars: Freed OFS client states probably have reasons to sue. Might well happen, and this could be disastrous for involved transtellars, but I don't think we'll hear too much of this, since David Weber isn't exactly known for court dramas Well, there was the sword duel thing on Grayson, but I don't thing trials against giant corporations would go that way

Cirdan wrote:I think we need to differentiate here:

...

-Transtellars: Freed OFS client states probably have reasons to sue. Might well happen, and this could be disastrous for involved transtellars, but I don't think we'll hear too much of this, since David Weber isn't exactly known for court dramas Well, there was the sword duel thing on Grayson, but I don't thing trials against giant corporations would go that way

Where are they going to bring suit, and what set of laws are they going to sue under? The SL no longer exists, so its laws are moot. I doubt if they're going to get anywhere suing in the transstellar's home system, and, outside of confiscating local assets, they're not going to get anywhere suing in their own courts: there are no assets they haven't already seized and they probably had no laws against whatever the transstellars did anyway. Manticore or Haven? The transstellar can plead lack of jurisdiction.

Weird Harold wrote:

Zakharra wrote: Especially since there would be a Solarian currency anymore.

Did you leave out a word?

Zakharra wrote:Cthia makes a good point. There is no pre-determined size of what would be acceptable other than something that is too small to threaten Manticore. And that's a damned vague term.

It is a "vague term" because the conditions it describes are extremely context sensitive. A hundred systems like Nuncio isn't going to be a threat in the foreseeable future. Two or three aggressive Core Worlds is a threat in any future.

Yup, I did leave out a word accidentally. I meant 'there would not be a Solarian currency'.

If three Core worlds that stick together is an unacceptable threat, the SEM has already lost the war. As I and others keep pointing out, past a certain nebulous point, anything Manticore and the GA do militarily WILL backfire on them. Badly. Because it's going to be very clear that nothing in the SL is capable of standing up to the SEM/GA militarily. The SLN is seriously outclassed and everyone will know it, so if the SL ceases all military action and sues for peace and admits culpability and such, if the GA continues military operations it will be seen as the bully, the aggressor against a helpless opponent. And I doubt the GA could demand the SL break itself up. That would be taken badly too.

Given the average SL 'citizen' doesn't identify himself as a SL but of his own immediate system, the idea of a large SL polity surviving the coming chaos is a bit of a stretch when there are so darn few ready and willing to defend it, as Ottweiler and "Firebrand" noted back in SFtS.

I think that's misquoted. The average SL citizen identifies themselves as their system/planet first, then as a Solarian citizen, but the idea of being a Solarian citizen is a very strong tie and idea. Otherwise the SL would have fallen apart long ago. It's clear there is a loyalty to the idea of the SL, I don't think it's as weak as people think it might be in the Core and the systems closest to the Core.