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Raiding or Piracy?

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Re: Raiding or Piracy?
Post by Weird Harold   » Mon Aug 04, 2014 11:56 pm

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KNick wrote:Meyers, however, is a different kettle of fish altogether. It is an independent star nation in it's own right. It is not part of the SL. It is simply a planet where the SLN and OFS has set up an administrative hub. It has done so with a formal treaty with Meyers.


If that is true, why is Commisoner Verrochio referred to as "the Sector Governor?"

[quote+"Shadow of Freedom
Chappter Thirty-three
"]Verrocchio started to say something else, then stopped, and his eyes narrowed suddenly. Unlike the sector governor, Hongbo wasn’t in the capital city of Pine Mountain. For that matter, he wasn’t even on the planet of Meyers. No, he was aboard Meyers One, the primary freight handling platform orbiting the planet. Or that was where he was supposed to be, anyway. But if he were on Meyers One, the com delay should be scarcely noticeable.[/quote]
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

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Re: Raiding or Piracy?
Post by Eagleeye   » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:54 am

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Weird Harold wrote:
KNick wrote:Meyers, however, is a different kettle of fish altogether. It is an independent star nation in it's own right. It is not part of the SL. It is simply a planet where the SLN and OFS has set up an administrative hub. It has done so with a formal treaty with Meyers.


If that is true, why is Commisoner Verrochio referred to as "the Sector Governor?"


Because he was. Sector Governor, I mean. Meyers was about as independent from the League as a colony is independent from it's colonial power. Or, maybe it's more like a crown colony; after all, Meyers had a government, made of it's own people, through the whole time, even if this government was extremly limited in its areas of responsibility.

The so-called treaty between Meyers and the OFS was nothing more than a legal fig leaf, which could deceive "only a particular incredulous two-year-old" as David let say it a Mantie in a similiar situation in ... was it SoF? not sure. But it fits, nonetheless ;)
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Re: Raiding or Piracy?
Post by crewdude48   » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:23 am

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KNick wrote:And that small but very important point is why I asked the question in the first place.

Thank you Lazarlives for your response. It contained everything I thought I wanted to know when I started this. Mike is covered, barely, by the fig leaf of the offensive acts of the SLN. Since everything up to and including Crandell were responses to direct attacks, there is absolutely no question about their legality, even though not all of those actions were within the borders of the SEM. Her attack on Mesa could be covered two ways. First, by the fact that they had uncovered evidence that Mesa had instigated and funded terroristic attacks on the SEM. Second, Torch is a "client" state or "allied" state and they have formally declared war on Mesa. The RMN is simply giving them a hand with their war.

Meyers, however, is a different kettle of fish altogether. It is an independent star nation in it's own right. It is not part of the SL. It is simply a planet where the SLN and OFS has set up an administrative hub. It has done so with a formal treaty with Meyers. The fact that the treaty was extorted at gunpoint is, for the moment, immaterial. Since Mike has not received a formal declaration of war against either Meyers or the SL, she is in effect committing acts of piracy to protect her nation. Although, since she has not taken anything from Meyers, that might be a debatable point in their case.

Since many, if not most, of the Verge planets are nominally independent systems, how can the RMN justify their actions in those systems without a formal declaration? They are not legally part of the SL, even if they are administered by OFS. They will not be covered by even a formal declaration against the SL. All that does is make any SLN and OFS operations within a given system legitimate targets. How does Mike and 19th Fleet, or for that matter, any other Fleet/Task Force/ Task Group make that distinction?


I think her attack in the Meyers system would be justified as self defense, or what ever you would call it when it applys to nations. She did not attack Meyers to attack Meyers, but to attack the OFS and FF bases that made multiple attacks against her star nation possible. The fact is that anything else that happened in that system was more or less collateral damage.

As for your last paragraph, a) if there isn't a formal declaration of war already, there will be one before the next system is hit, and b) with a decleration of war against the SL, any and all bases, offices, administrative centers, etc of any organization of the SL is a valid target regardless of where it is. If an "independent" star nation decided to help defend those bases etc, then they are willing to become combatants. If they don't defend those bases etc, then Manticore will leave as soon as they have taken out anything that the SL has in that system.

Also, I suspect that any decleration of war will be against "The Solarian League and any Allies of the Solarian League who are hostile to the Star Empire."
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Re: Raiding or Piracy?
Post by George J. Smith   » Tue Aug 05, 2014 7:43 am

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KNick wrote:Since many, if not most, of the Verge planets are nominally independent systems, how can the RMN justify their actions in those systems without a formal declaration? They are not legally part of the SL, even if they are administered by OFS. They will not be covered by even a formal declaration against the SL. All that does is make any SLN and OFS operations within a given system legitimate targets. How does Mike and 19th Fleet, or for that matter, any other Fleet/Task Force/ Task Group make that distinction?


A de facto state of war exists between the SEM & SL, and possibly a de jeur state if it was voted out off-camera, so I think that if 10th Fleet, or its parts, broadcast to the effect that it was there to deal with OFS/SLN and not with the systems themselves there should be no problem.


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Re: Raiding or Piracy?
Post by jgnfld   » Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:38 am

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crewdude48 wrote:...
As I have said before; the current US Congress, if on fire, couldn't pass the "Pour Water on Congress Act." However, if a hostile attack fleet sailed into San Francisco Bay, it wouldn't take more than a day to get a declaration of war voted out.

Manticore, on the other hand has basically no opposition party. If Grantville asked for a declaration, he would get it.


Actually what would happen in this case is the President would order local commanders to take action, action would be taken, and then Congress would dither around with how to deal with the aftermath. Probably there would be impeach resolutions over "the usurpation and use of unbridled power" in the present political situation!
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Re: Raiding or Piracy?
Post by SWM   » Tue Aug 05, 2014 1:03 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:If that is true, why is Commisoner Verrochio referred to as "the Sector Governor?"

Shadow of Freedom
Chappter Thirty-three
wrote:
Verrocchio started to say something else, then stopped, and his eyes narrowed suddenly. Unlike the sector governor, Hongbo wasn’t in the capital city of Pine Mountain. For that matter, he wasn’t even on the planet of Meyers. No, he was aboard Meyers One, the primary freight handling platform orbiting the planet. Or that was where he was supposed to be, anyway. But if he were on Meyers One, the com delay should be scarcely noticeable.

I see two possibilities. A) It is a typo. However, it appears more than once in the text, including one line in SoS, "Commissioner Verocchio is a sector governor, himself." A typo seems unlikely. B) The OFS uses the term "sector governor" for a commissioner who is in charge of OFS affairs in an entire sector. This seems likely. The list of characters at the end of SoS makes clear that Verrocchio is the administrator for the OFS in the Madras Sector--not the administrator for the Solarian League.
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Re: Raiding or Piracy?
Post by TheMonster   » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:15 pm

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crewdude48 wrote:I think her attack in the Meyers system would be justified as self defense, or what ever you would call it when it applys to nations. She did not attack Meyers to attack Meyers, but to attack the OFS and FF bases that made multiple attacks against her star nation possible.
Furthermore, she wisely met with the Prime Minister of the King of Meyers and worked out an arrangement under which the SEM would recognize his government as the legitimate authority over the system, as well as strongly hinting that they'd probably want a deal like they got from Marsh/Sidemore where Meyers would provide support for an RMN base.

The way the winds are blowing, there's a good chance that the other systems in the former Madras Sector will coalesce into something rather like we expect Maya to become soon, with Meyers continuing as the capital of the new entity. They may not seek outright SEM membership along the lines of the Talbott Cluster/Quadrant, but instead want the protection of the GA as an independent multi-system nation. Then again, maybe they will want to join up and get a piece of the pie.

None of the liberated systems in the former Madras Sector will consider Mike's actions to be "piracy" or "raiding". That won't stop the Mandarins from calling it that, of course.
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Re: Raiding or Piracy?
Post by n7axw   » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:19 pm

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There is no realistic way that Meyers can be regarded as independent. The locals have to submit to OFS rather than being in charge of their own affairs. Their economy has been taken over by a trans-stellar of OFS's choosing. To be sure, they retain the trappings of government, but that is only the interface through which OFS acts to impose its will. Systems like Myers are independent in name only.

When Admiral Henke moved in on Meyers, she liberated the system rather than performing an act of piracy. IIRC, she acted only after news of the League's attack on Manticore reached her, establishing a defacto state of war with the League which I assume became a de jure state of war by act of Parliament.

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Re: Raiding or Piracy?
Post by SWM   » Tue Aug 05, 2014 11:33 pm

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n7axw wrote:There is no realistic way that Meyers can be regarded as independent. The locals have to submit to OFS rather than being in charge of their own affairs. Their economy has been taken over by a trans-stellar of OFS's choosing. To be sure, they retain the trappings of government, but that is only the interface through which OFS acts to impose its will. Systems like Myers are independent in name only.

When Admiral Henke moved in on Meyers, she liberated the system rather than performing an act of piracy. IIRC, she acted only after news of the League's attack on Manticore reached her, establishing a defacto state of war with the League which I assume became a de jure state of war by act of Parliament.

Don

No one has claimed that Meyers is truly independent. It is de facto a satrapy of the OFS. But it is still nominally independent, and has it's own King. That means it is not a Protectorate.

Protectorates are officially under the control of the Solarian League. The Protectorates lie in a zone (semi-spherical) around Sol which is also called the Protectorates. Meyers is not a Protectorate, and lies well outside the zone which contains the Protectorates.

The discussion started when someone claimed that Manticore must have put embassies on the Protectorates, after gaining the Talbott Cluster. Since Manticore clearly did not place embassies on important star systems such as Meyes and Saltash (far closer to the Talbott Cluster than the Protectorates), it does not seem likely that they have embassies in the Protectorates.
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Re: Raiding or Piracy?
Post by Vince   » Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:40 am

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n7axw wrote:There is no realistic way that Meyers can be regarded as independent. The locals have to submit to OFS rather than being in charge of their own affairs. Their economy has been taken over by a trans-stellar of OFS's choosing. To be sure, they retain the trappings of government, but that is only the interface through which OFS acts to impose its will. Systems like Myers are independent in name only.

When Admiral Henke moved in on Meyers, she liberated the system rather than performing an act of piracy. IIRC, she acted only after news of the League's attack on Manticore reached her, establishing a defacto state of war with the League which I assume became a de jure state of war by act of Parliament.

Don

You remember correctly that 10th Fleet moved on Meyers after Filareta's Fiasco.
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