antimissile antiLAC

Added bonus of all the wedges is that it will block any FTL. Apollo is better than standard missile control systems but block the FTL links and suddenly it loses a large portion of that advantage. Still better than previous onboard sensors but when you lose active control it causes havok. Havok is good.

Lord Skimper wrote:Added bonus of all the wedges is that it will block any FTL. Apollo is better than standard missile control systems but block the FTL links and suddenly it loses a large portion of that advantage. Still better than previous onboard sensors but when you lose active control it causes havok. Havok is good.

Since when has cutting your own control links been any good for anything, ever? Or have you forgotten that such cuts are, by necessity, going both ways?

Yes certain areas will have control links cut but two things need be considered. The mine field will be quite close to the ship it is protecting and the Keyhole which the ship will also be using will be sitting in the gaps of the mine field. The mines are not interlaced physically but rather act as a screen, much like a forest, you can see into the forest a bit but eventually the other trees get in the way. The Keyhole will be in the gaps near the edge of the "forest" if you will. They will still have direct line of sight with the ship but they but that will be a narrowish channel that is covered by the multitude of PD clusters that the keyhole platforms mount and the ship based CM and PD.

The further away from the ship the mines are they further apart they have to be as well. This is good for LAC but not for Mines. The area protected is small clusters around the ships with large empty spaces between the ships. The area itself is very large and the ships are quite far apart. a 10 x 10 grid of mines 1 KM apart would only cover 100 Sq KM. Make that area 80 mines by 5 mines 2-3 mines deep, with 2.5 KM between the mines and you cover the ship quite well. Not counting where the wedge is, Opening only and on the side of the threat, Firing into the entire area and the areas around it, plus the areas of the ships own defenses and Keyhole and wedge gaps etc... it is an area of space that is a blanked out spot.

This are could be further out and create a blind spot, but it could also be avoided as well. It would ideally be between CM and Ship Based PD zones. Depending on how it is used.

A a blind spot it would be nice to cover the whole ship and wedge but it would take a lot of mines to do that, or larger wedges. One might do this with a Stationary Space Station or Forte. For ship uses it would be best used to cover / enhance sidewall or buckler areas. Add a little bit of Active defense to the passive defenses as well and as the Wedge is much more powerful than a sidewall if it were between the ship and the laser head missile it could be an even more powerful enhancement.

The sensors of the aiming system of the mines and the wide open throat of the mines would allow the ship to use the mine sensors, in multitude for local defense (not FTL or Missile activations) CM perhaps but not MDM.

A system defense mine could be more durable and have a longer duration. It doesn't need to be carried as much nor is it as disposable as Ship pod based versions. Could also be bigger with just the SD level versions. Bigger wedges and able to provide a wedge shield for a station or base.

One could also have an escort freighter that hauls mines and deploys them in systems around freighters or transports. A mine tube similar to a missile tube but without the acceleration launch and such a single huge Freighter could launch a swarm of mines to protect a convoy up close.

When running the mines work best as they cover the smaller kilt of the ship and being rear mounted can fire at everything that approaches. Multi layered and with many many active firing PD lasers. Plus they will block the view of the fleeing ships, over its smallest aspect.

To be deployed either in pods or singularly they could be flushed out of a ship and as they can move so quickly, compared to a ship, they can be dumped and quickly setup a covering field. Recovery would be slower without pods but it will give freighter crews something to do while running for the hyper limit. Or they could just home in and rush, albeit slowly, any pursuing ships. Wedge vs sidewall should do some damage, wedge vs hull even more. Particularly to pirates or commerce raiders. Like everyone's favourite mines.

A mine carrying mega freighter should also be able to carry a great many mines. Pod based or just spewing them out. 25,000-50,000 perhaps, depending on mine size. Although a civilian version might not have a PD laser, thus keeping the cost and size down. Could also be capacitor based if need be or for export.

Lord Skimper wrote:Having PD mines not being able to keep up isn't a problem if they can defeat missiles. Having maneuverability but getting killed because someone is shooting 1000's of missiles at you doesn't work. So you change your tactics.

So what you are saying in the above quote is that being a stationary target is safe in the Honorverse? Are you saying that allowing your opponent's weapons to be able to predict your fleet and ship's location within a small area (a quarter light-second sphere) is not suicidal? Don't forget that since you are in formation with not only your fleet, but also the 'mine cloud' you will not be very free to manoeuver and reposition your ship.

Being in a predictable location enhances your opponent's ability to manoeuver for throat and kilt shots and time their approaches and optimise their angles of attack. It may even allow your opponent to unleash BIGGER missile salvos at you because they won't need to use fire control to direct their missiles to your location.



Half or a third of the size of a normal missile, capable of 3000-30000g's of accel and with room AND power source for sustained firing of a PD laser [cluster?]. Don't forget telemetry and/or sensors it will require to target the incoming missiles. Normal length of an engagement can vary from minutes to hours. Presumably the mines need the endurance (wedges up) to keep up with ships that are manoeuvring for position this entire time (up to several hours).

This "Spec" cannot be constructed with current Textev Honorverse technology. The smallest examples of drones/missiles with that much endurance are recon drones and graser torpedoes, which are both MUCH bigger than regular missiles.

The key problem is there is not enough power to make your proposals possible.

The other glaring problem (out of the numerous problems in your proposal) is that the proposed 'screen' of wedges requires 800-1200 of these magical 'mines' and contains many gaps - 2.5 km apart, even staggered it is still possible (even easy) to see the ship's location behind this screen because this 'formation' is smaller than the wedge of the ship! It is the tactical equivalent of someone standing behind a lampstand that only covers their head.

Do you know that laser head missiles fire from 25,000km away? That they can attack (and are programmed to seek out) the bow and stern (throat and kilt) aspects?

Do everyone (yourself included) a favour and get a piece of paper: Draw a simplified 2D diagram of a ship's wedge (include dimensions!) and then draw an arrangement of wedges that could protect the ship (to scale).

Please post the result up, including a count of how many wedges you would require and what their size would be.


P.S.
I almost forgot to mention the vulnerability of such a formation to getting 'soft killed'.

BobfromSydney wrote:Half or a third of the size of a normal missile, capable of 3000-30000g's of accel and with room AND power source for sustained firing of a PD laser [cluster?]. Don't forget telemetry and/or sensors it will require to target the incoming missiles. Normal length of an engagement can vary from minutes to hours. Presumably the mines need the endurance (wedges up) to keep up with ships that are manoeuvring for position this entire time (up to several hours).

This "Spec" cannot be constructed with current Textev Honorverse technology. The smallest examples of drones/missiles with that much endurance are recon drones and graser torpedoes, which are both MUCH bigger than regular missiles.

The key problem is there is not enough power to make your proposals possible.

Plus RFC already said that even a full sized recon drone doesn't have the room or the power to run even a single emitter of a PDLC.

But why should Skimper listen to him; he's only the guy who created this universe and had the tech bible for it.

PD laser emiiters come in multiple sizes, most of these mines will be the super small LAC light version.

Also if the mine can make an extremely power hungry wedge, how can't it fire a single light PD laser element. And this is using the latest tech mini fusion reactors not the old school whatever they used.

A mini fusion reactor can power an Apollo missile full missile MDM wedge and the FTL comms plus control links for all the missiles it controls but can't fire a PD element?

Lord Skimper wrote:
A mini fusion reactor can power an Apollo missile full missile MDM wedge and the FTL comms plus control links for all the missiles it controls but can't fire a PD element?

1. So now it's the size of an Apollo missile?
Apollo missiles do not have an endurance of HOURS. Missile wedges are not variable and have very short burn-out times.
Apollo missile is TOO SMALL.

2. Exactly. It can't fire a PD element. David Weber has said exactly that in the other thread.
Consider the amount of energy it takes to cook a 100-ton space-hardened weapon WITH particle/energy shielding (in most cases you are intercepting front-on) into non-functional slag within the sub-microsecond period a 'hit' lasts. LAC PD lasers are mounted on 10,000-20,000 ton platforms.

BobfromSydney wrote:

Lord Skimper wrote:
A mini fusion reactor can power an Apollo missile full missile MDM wedge and the FTL comms plus control links for all the missiles it controls but can't fire a PD element?

1. So now it's the size of an Apollo missile?
Apollo missiles do not have an endurance of HOURS. Missile wedges are not variable and have very short burn-out times.
Apollo missile is TOO SMALL.

2. Exactly. It can't fire a PD element. David Weber has said exactly that in the other thread.
Consider the amount of energy it takes to cook a 100-ton space-hardened weapon WITH particle/energy shielding (in most cases you are intercepting front-on) into non-functional slag within the sub-microsecond period a 'hit' lasts. LAC PD lasers are mounted on 10,000-20,000 ton platforms.

3. LAC PDLC's are usually BC-sized, I believe. There's no such thing as a "mini" PD cluster for LACs

MaxxQ wrote:3. LAC PDLC's are usually BC-sized, I believe. There's no such thing as a "mini" PD cluster for LACs

I'm not sure if they're really the same size, but in support of your statement I'd note that the Jayne's Books claim that the Redoubtable-class BC (1786 PD) uses 6 Mk11 emitters in its PDLCs, while the Highlander-class LAC uses 2 Mk11 emitters in its PDLCs.

And on the Peep side they've got an SD, BC, and Q-ship that all use P/18x PDLCs with various numbers of emitters. And if their PDLCs use a similar nomenclature to their main beams that makes each emitter an 18cm laser.

Though their cruisers and destroyers uses P/16x5; so I guess there's some slight variation in emitter size. But still a LAC might use as few as 1/5th the number of emitters per cluster and 15-20% smaller emitters; when compared to an SD. But that's about as much shrinkage as you're doing despite displacing only 15% as much.

First off tons being displacement, the Shrike Ferret Katana are about 5000 tons.

House of steel notes that while the triple emitters of the nose mounts of the Katana are triple element SD level PD. While the other PD are Light LAC versions.

The wedge wouldn't be a missile wedge, closer to a ghost rider wedge.

The mini fusion reactor would be used to charge up the capacitor of the PD element. It may have a slow recharge compared to a ship version, but it will charge up. Fire then take some time to recharge.

Apollo sized for a single large element, Mk23 for a smaller light PD Element. Perhaps a bit bigger around. Hence I suggested 1 larger and 3-6 smaller for a fit in a pod. Smaller light version may be shorter than a larger one. Hence end to end mounting for 3 / 6 light PD mines and 1 Apollo larger mine.